My descent into piano VI madness

[progger]

I honestly never thought this would happen, but a series of experiences over the past couple years led me to become reasonably obsessed with piano VIs. These experiences included, but aren't limited to, playing a zillion gigs domestically, doing a couple short tours in Europe, listening to a lot of Keith Jarrett and (as always) Kenny Kirkland, writing a couple short soundtracks, and having way, way too much downtime during days at a luxury hotel in Las Vegas, where I'm a prisoner in a gilded cage all too frequently.

This past week, I started building a Logic project to play around and, somewhat, rank my favorite piano VIs. What you might see in the attached screenshot isn't even the entire collection. And I gave up on the ranking after the first six or seven, all the instruments sound nice and would be good for something, they just won't probably be go-to instruments for what I usually do.

Over the years collecting these, practicing with them, and – for a couple – using them in professional recordings/productions, as well as reading the voluminous online opinions about them, I've learned a lot about my own taste/needs concerning piano VIs and how they might differ from a lot of other composers/pianists. Many composers, particularly those focused on film scores (or music that sounds like a film score), want a very "wet" piano sound, with the room baked into the samples. The popularity of Garritan CFX and the VSL Synchron pianos makes this clear. These are beautiful pianos that I enjoy practicing with, but I haven't ever been able to make them work in a production I've done... and they're honestly not ideal for the kind of music I normally play (although I can beat Garritan into submission by killing the room mics, turning the releases way down, and adding some saturation).

Classical pianists clearly love Pianoteq, which I confess I haven't even started to mess with yet, largely because I've never enjoyed the sound (I had a composition student who used it in his demos frequently and I wasn't ever happy with how it presented). It's reportedly come a long way in recent years, and on paper I should love it, the immediate response and infinite tweakability are appealing to me. So that's probably next on the journey.

But, ultimately, I've learned which pianos are just right for me. The top marks go to two developers in particular: Spectrasonics and VI-Labs. With a significant honorable mention to UVI for developing an ideal platform for piano playing... I can't explain why UVI-based pianos feel so much better than Kontakt-based pianos, but the difference is immediate and clear when I switch between them.

Spectrasonics, of course, is the brainchild of synth legend Eric Persing, and his Keyscape instrument has been central to my work since I got it years ago. While the electric/digital pianos in Keyscape are basically all I use in productions, the same was true for the C7 for many years, and it's still excellent in my book, one of the best ever. A joy to play, great sound, very tweakable, responsive and gorgeous for a wide variety of applications. It was only recently unseated for #1 by...

VI-Labs, the brainchild of Lance Herring, who seems to be a particular and unique piano VI genius. Some friends of mine betatested Modern D and raved about it to me for many weeks prior to its launch (although they never told me who or what it was, just that a game-changing piano VI was on the way), so I bought it the day it was released and my mind was blown. I hadn't ever played a piano I liked as much as Keyscape's C7, let alone one I liked more, but it had all of the response and sound I needed plus that Steinway magic. Add some subtle saturation and Lexicon reverb and suddenly I'm playing an ECM record from 1991. Absolute heaven for my sonic sensibilities. I grabbed Ravenscroft and Modern U soon afterward, I couldn't get enough.

Aside from Pianoteq, the piano I'm most curious about that I haven't yet tried is Synthogy's Ivory, which by all accounts is excellent. As you can tell from my insanity, the odds I get both of these before too long are extremely high.

And if, for any reason, you want to nerd out even more about virtual pianos on Discord, by all means let me know and I'll send you a link to the server that the great Rabih Rihana (Keepitsimple) started last year. It's sleepy a lot of the time but when we go in, we go in.

[Geoff Grace]

I think many of us have too many piano VIs, Brian.

My own favorite is Production Voices Production Grand 2 Full, a Yamaha C7. It can be a little bright for some uses, but it's the best combination of feel and sound for me. That said, I'm cautious to recommend it these days because the creator, Jason, seems to have moved on to other work and reportedly isn't answering email. If you buy, I highly recommend backing it up; because if something goes wrong, you're probably on your own. Fortunately, it's Kontakt-based; so it's likely to remain compatible with future operating systems, as long as you upgrade Kontakt.

As a result of my favorite piano VI becoming unsupported, I'm paying more attention to new releases from other companies. I missed the Modern D into, but I'm likely to get that when it goes on sale. I like, and sometimes use, VI-Labs' Ravenscroft; so I have good experience with the developer.

As for Ivory, Synthogy's pianos were among the best 10-15 years ago, and they used to be my first call; but I stopped using them years ago, after finding libraries I liked better. YMMV. The uprights were the last that I abandoned because it took longer for the competition to match the Ivory ones.

While I love Keyscape, I've never warmed up to the C7; but plenty of people who I respect love it, so I'm not surprised that you do. I also have many of the other pianos on your list.

Then, there are the so-called "character pianos;" but perhaps that's another topic...

Best,

Geoff

[Lawrence]

Brian, have you ever tried the Art VistA VGP 2?

It’s definitely a character piano but it’s a nice warm one.

[progger]

Thanks for chiming in, guys!

Geoff – I've heard really good things about that Production Voices piano and I'd considered grabbing it until it seemed the developer vanished. Sad stuff, I hope he's ok. And yeah, Keyscape's C7 is somewhat polarizing, people tend to either love it (like me) or not get along with it at all (many folks on VIC, for example). It was love at first boot for me, as soon as I played it I knew I'd found the best piano for my personal taste and needs at that time... and it's still WAY up there, neck and neck with the much more recent, and virtually unimpeachable, Modern D. (Which I recommend wholeheartedly to one and all.) Good to hear your take on Ivory, I think I'll probably grab the American D (Ivory III) whenever it goes on any kind of sale out of curiosity, but not out of any kind of "need" at this point. Ditto Pianoteq.

Lawrence – I haven't used any of the Art Vista instruments, I'll need to give them a look! I do enjoy playing around with character pianos on occasion. I've been beta testing for a great developer (not one named so far) who has an extremely cool character piano coming out that I produced some demos for, I'll be excited to share those here and elsewhere when they're released.

Something I forgot to mention, that I'm very excited about: Steinberg's "Etude" C3X, for Halion (and Sonic), is my favorite new piano since Modern D, and my favorite "small grand" in the locker. It's probably my #4 overall, in fact, after Keyscape and various VI-Labs pianos, and I'm particularly excited about Yamaha and Steinberg's effort to nail a great Yamaha instrument in virtual form. Whenever they release a C7 for Halion, I'm onboard, no question.

I've become more sensitive than I would have anticipated to the various player platforms out there, and Kontakt is, I must say, my least favorite for pianos. UVI is stellar, as is Halion, and Spectrasonics' proprietary player (which, I believe, may be derived from UVI Workstation). VSL is great too, although I don't use those pianos much since they're so roomy!

[Lawrence]

The Art Vista was my go to piano until I tried the Modern D, which is far more versatile. That said, I go back to the VGP2 at times because of the movement of air within the samples. I love a piano that breathes.

[Geoff Grace]

Geoff – I've heard really good things about that Production Voices piano and I'd considered grabbing it until it seemed the developer vanished. Sad stuff, I hope he's ok.

My understanding is that Jason is okay; he’s just moved on. I believe his piano that really caused a stir was the 300 Grand, sampling a Yamaha CFX, which was a follow up to the library I like.

I rarely post my music in forums, but this one seems appropriate as it’s a solo piece I wrote and played using the Production Grand 2 Full. I should add that I’m not primarily a jazz pianist; but I was a jazz piano major in college, before I switched to composition. Decades later, I was commissioned to do a solo jazz piano album; and this is one of the songs I created:



Best,

Geoff

[progger]

That sounds really nice indeed!

[Markus K]

I'm no trained piano player so pianos are not that essential for me than for others I suppose but of course there have to be some instruments that I feel comfortable with because it's essential for composing. Since I got the Pianotec Boesendorfer I hardly used another one because it really feels right to me in a lot of ways and the often criticised Pianotec problem is by far not as apparent as with other models imo. So the new Pianotec models are really a big step forward I think. There is also a lot of raving about the new Kawai which I don't have.
I also got the Modern D and like it a lot but for practicing and laying down ideas I still prefer Pianotec.

Last week I had a little recording session with a professional classical piano player for recording a solo piano piece I did for a soundtrack and wanted it better played than by me. I gave her the Pianotec and the Modern D to decide what she likes better and within half a minute she decided for the Modern D. That was interesting since I don't have that strong of an opinion about those two.

[Piet De Ridder]

(...) Synthogy's Ivory, which by all accounts is excellent. (...)

Not all accounts, Brian. Here's is an audio example (my rather clumsy piano version of the first part of Mingus’s “Sue’s Changes”) that gives, I think, a fair idea of what Ivory 3 American D is good at, but also exposes a number of things that always bother me when I play this instrument:

(1) There’s something not quite right with the dynamics, to my ears; the low dynamics dropping too much in volume without a corresponding timbre change. (Editing the patch, which I didn't do here, can improve this problem, but creates new difficulties.)
(2) In too many notes, it sounds as if the samples were trimmed too close to the transient.
(3) Perhaps not very apparent in this example, but combining both A and B mics will sometimes result in subtle but audible phasing.
(5) There’s a sort of congested, overly dense sound happening when playing more intricate parts with big chords. Sounding a bit compressed, even though I switched off Synthogy’s compressor and there’s also no compression on the StereoOut (which only has a subliminally acting Limiter inserted).
(4) An overal processed, plastic-y, *very* sterile, PCM-like sound, I find. The sort of sound I expect to come out of my Yamaha Montage. Not a believable acoustic sound.

Now, I’m sure that with a lot of editing, and using multiple instances to adress area- or note-specific problems, a better sound is possible with the Ivory 3, but it’ll always sound a bit artificial and fake, which is why I never really bothered with investigating how good it actually can get.

Far from perfect either, but I still prefer Ivory 2. Here’s a little something I recorded a few years ago with the Ivory 2 American D.

As I posted on in the VILabs ModernD thread on VI-C, some time last year: “(…) To my ears, Synthogy’s Ivory3 software isn’t all there yet. Maybe in some future version all the ingredients — samples, algorithms and programming cleverness — will fall nicely into place and produce wonderful-sounding results, but not in this one. Not quite. The things that sounded weak in Ivory 2 still sound every bit as weak in Ivory 3, I find. And if I’m completely honest, I even feel that, quite often, Ivory 2 sounds better — less processed, less doctored — than Ivory 3 does. At least, I get the, to my ears, best sound out of the new American D if I disable everything that distinguishes Ivory 3 from its predecessor, except the additional mic perspectives, of course. (…)”

So, in short: Ivory 3 is not bad, it’s certainly not useless, and in some situations it will actually do quite well, but I don’t think of it as one of the great virtual pianos.

___

Talking of which: I still haven’t come across a truly great virtual piano, if I’m depressingly honest. There’s plenty that I like enough to have bought them, and the best among those give me more or less what I expect from a virtual piano (which is never much but, in certain tracks, satisfactory), but I haven’t found one yet that I consider good enough for solo piano work or mock-concert work.

I’ve always enjoyed, and keep enjoying (though less than I used to) the old Galaxy VintageD, and I don't regret buying the VIlabs ModernD, but the one I reach for first and most often in recent times, is the Chocolate Audio Model 7. Not free from problems either (and it not being a Steinway excludes it for certain styles, as does the fact that it doesn’t convince as concert-like instrument), but when I’m having a good piano playing day and the instrument fits the music, I’m usually pretty happy with the results.

Here's what the Chocolate Audio Model7 sounds like. (Only one instance used for the entire piece.)

A thing I like to do in order to decrease the insufferably boring sterility of all virtual pianos, is combine two of them. Or three. Or four. That is: start with one library and then replace a few cunningly selected notes here and there (often inner notes in chords, or less prominent ones in the left hand) with a different library. When it works, it works very well, I find. The piano in this piece — Chalumoo — for example, which I quite like the sound and the presence of, is 80% the Chocolate Audio Model 7, but with quite a few of its notes replaced by the Soundiron Montclarion (on its own, not a very pleasant, playable or great-sounding library, but turning out to be quite useful for this particular trick).

Loved your 2 improvisations with the Steinberg Etude (which you posted a few weeks ago on VI-C), by the way! Verrrry nice.

__

[progger]

Thanks for sharing all that, Piet, and great playing on all those clips!

Yes, I actually remember your comments on Ivory 3 from VIC, and they're largely shared by Rabih (keepitsimple) whose taste I trust enormously when it comes to all things piano. That's really why I haven't bought it yet, aside from the fact that I'm so thoroughly pleased by the VI-Labs and Spectrasonics pianos.

And as obsessive as my initial post presents, I think I'm actually a bit easier to pease than a lot of hardcore VI folks when it comes to pianos. I'm supremely happy with both Modern D and Keyscape C7, and not everyone is – if I ever feel anything lacking in either of them, I'm very confident it's coming from the player, not the instrument.

For people who are really playing these instruments and not just importing MIDI or programming it in, I think the experience can be tremendously different between playing and listening to playback, too. For whatever reason, I find it very hard to enjoy playing pianos using Kontakt for the platform compared to almost anything else (UVI, Spectrasonics, VSL, Halion, etc). Listening back to recordings, though, is no problem... there's no issue with sound quality at all, it's just the in-the-moment playing of the instrument that's so different. The immediacy of my favorite piano VIs, including the new Etude, is what makes me enjoy them so much. The Grandeur is a great-sounding piano VI, all the Galaxy pianos are, but the sluggish attack and release make it so that I'll never choose it over Modern D, for example. This is what has me so curious about Ivory and Pianoteq with their high-tech playability solutions. Sound-wise, I'm already very happy with everything I have!

That Chocolate Model7 sounds fantastic, I gotta say. Maybe I should check it out, even though it's Kontakt...

[RobS]

The Art Vista was my go to piano until I tried the Modern D, which is far more versatile. That said, I go back to the VGP2 at times because of the movement of air within the samples. I love a piano that breathes.

Love the ArtVista for the same reasons, movement in strings and sustained sound, especially effective when playing chords

[Ashermusic]

The Art Vista was my go to piano until I tried the Modern D, which is far more versatile. That said, I go back to the VGP2 at times because of the movement of air within the samples. I love a piano that breathes.

Love the ArtVista for the same reasons, movement in strings and sustained sound, especially effective when playing chords

Me too for the ArtVista, and also the ArtVista Maljmso, which has a certain magic to it., For sheer beauty I like the Embertone Walker 1955 Concert D Steinway, but when you play a lot of voices with the damper pedal depressed, it can get hinky sometimes.

Dexibell is sending me their newly released plugin version of the platinum pianos in their Vivo series keyboards soon, which is what I play live and love. I am curious to see how they fare in a plugin. I do also use the Chocolate Audio C7, Fluffy Audio Scoring Piano (which Rob tipped me off to) sometimes, nd even the Cinematic Studios piano at times..

And now Logic has really upgraded their Sampler based pianos, so I have an embarrassment of fine choices.

[RobS]

Please report back when you have tested the dexibell plugin Jay

[Piet De Ridder]

Listening to the audio demos of the Dexibell T2L and watching a few videos -- all on this page (you have to scroll all the way down) --, I'm not in the least impressed.

A very similar amount of money buys you IK Multimedia's Pianoverse MAX (the software + 9 pianos) (*) and while none of those pianos are outstanding either, they are, in my opinion, certainly better sounding than the Dexibell ones.

(*) when on sale, as it seems to be very often.

The Dexibell must rely quite a bit on modelling though for a large part of the pianosound — the entire package, including the 8 instruments, weighs only 5 gig (a single Pianoverse instrument weighs about 5 times that amount) — because its instruments load near instantaneously and you can switch from one to the other in the blink of an eye. This may make it more appealing for live use than Pianoverse is, if, that is, you like or need to switch instruments from one song to the next.

__

[Ashermusic]

Well I love my Dexibells live, they play great and the sound of the pianos and Wurlitzers and Rhodes and strings are very satisfying. Since the ram on my first gen machines is limited to use the Platinum Pianos with a full set of sounds, I had to choose one, and I went back and forth between USA, Italian, German, and Japan and for the pop music I perform, I have settled on the Japan piano. And as you can see from Beppo’s video, the level of control they give you is impressive.

But as Piet rightly alludes to, live is live and a plug-in inside a DAW is quite another so when I get it and play with it for a while, we will see how I feel about it.

[progger]

And now Logic has really upgraded their Sampler based pianos, so I have an embarrassment of fine choices.

We really do indeed have an embarrassment of riches in music software, it's phenomenal... with all the terrifying stuff happening in the world right now, I'm still grateful for what's available to us creatively, at least. And yeah, those new Logic pianos are a BIG step up from the old ones! They aren't displacing any of my go-tos, but they're damn nice.

Today I was having a lot of fun practicing with VSL Synchron CFX, my favorite VSL piano that I've tried by a long shot. Here's a clip and the settings I used. No external effects except a limiter ("Ocelot" from Fuse Audio Labs).

[Geoff Grace]

Very nice, Brian!

Best,

Geoff

[RobS]

...

Today I was having a lot of fun practicing with VSL Synchron CFX, my favorite VSL piano that I've tried by a long shot. Here's a clip and the settings I used. No external effects except a limiter ("Ocelot" from Fuse Audio Labs).

nice playing! I like the CFX, though I don't have it... had a new interest in the Steinway when I discovered the ribbon mic, it gets rid of the room almost entirely but I must admit, the CFX has more solid attacks:

Synchron Steinway-ribbon mic.mp3

(2.73 MiB) Downloaded 133 times

Edit: wrong velocity curve

[Geoff Grace]

Piet and Rob, I also enjoyed your examples!

It’s very satisfying to share our music, in addition to our words.

Best,

Geoff

[Ashermusic]

Beautiful playing, Brian.

[Lawrence]

And now Logic has really upgraded their Sampler based pianos, so I have an embarrassment of fine choices.

We really do indeed have an embarrassment of riches in music software, it's phenomenal... with all the terrifying stuff happening in the world right now, I'm still grateful for what's available to us creatively, at least. And yeah, those new Logic pianos are a BIG step up from the old ones! They aren't displacing any of my go-tos, but they're damn nice.

Today I was having a lot of fun practicing with VSL Synchron CFX, my favorite VSL piano that I've tried by a long shot. Here's a clip and the settings I used. No external effects except a limiter ("Ocelot" from Fuse Audio Labs).

Great playing.

I don't actually love the sound, though. That piano sounds sort of boxy to me, especially compared to the Modern D, the Ravenscroft etc.

[progger]

Great playing.

I don't actually love the sound, though. That piano sounds sort of boxy to me, especially compared to the Modern D, the Ravenscroft etc.

Thank you! And while I like the sound a fair amount, I agree that it isn't close to Modern D or Ravenscroft... almost nothing is.

[RobS]

Piet and Rob, I also enjoyed your examples!

It’s very satisfying to share our music, in addition to our words.

Best,

Geoff

likewise, Geoff I enjoyed yours!

[Ashermusic]

OK I finally got the Dexibell T2L piano plug-in. Is it better than all the other modeled and sampled pianos I own? No. Is it's bragged about realism more than the others? No. Will I be using it a lot. Yes.

Here's why:
1. These days I am back to most of what I do being writing, recording and playing my pop songs live. And since my keyboards are Dexibell Vivos, there is a distinct advantage for me to have my backing tracks, which are sans lead vocal and piano, sound almost exactly like my recordings when I play live without third party FX or Logicc Pro FX. And I do really like the piano sounds in my Vivo S7 and S1.

2. On my keyboards, I can only have 1 "Platinum" piano library loaded and keep a compliment of other sounds, since the RAM is limited and they are big. But in the plug-in, I can have them all, and go between them USA, Japan, German, Italian, French, upright, ragtime and honky tonk and the plug-in is super efficient and puts no strain on my Mac even in a full template.

It also has all kinds of tweaks and controls you can adjust to your personal taste.

For scoring work, I almost certainly may turn to some of my others but this is going to make my song work simpler and Moree consistent, and at this stage of my life, that's a plus.

But obviously, this is very specific to me and my needs, so if you have ones you really like, I get why you would pass on this one.

[progger]

It does look like a good bundle, Jay, and a solid price for what's included, particularly if all the models are comparable quality and vary in useful ways. Like I mentioned on VIC, I played my buddy's Dexibell a few days ago and it's a great board, feels great and the sounds are excellent. I already have my stable of piano VIs I love so I probably won't spring for this one, but I'm a certifiable piano VI addict, so... there's a nonzero chance I'll end up with these someday anyway.

Something I didn't expect today over in electric piano world: I had been planning on getting the Korg Triton plugin for quite a long time. On the current sale, just getting the whole collection was only $50 more than the Triton on its own, so I caved. I already had the M1, so I knew the Korg VIs are solid, and I was immediately glad I got the Triton, at least. Tons of useful sounds for the kind of work I do, and I always have uses for classic ROMpler sounds.

But I wasn't totally expecting just how great the EP-1 sounds. I remember really enjoying the Kronos Rhodes and Wurli patches and I vaguely recall that the EP-1 is that same engine, but damn, it's one of my best Rhodes and Wurli VIs now. Great sounds, great design, they really killed it with that one. EP-1 and Triton alone are well worth the bundle price on sale, at least.

(The Korg acoustic piano sounds from the M1 and Triton are cool in their own way, but of course no substitute for proper modern piano VIs like Modern D.)