Global Film Decline

[Tanuj Tiku]

I am not sure how man members here work directly in film and television but I am reasonably confident that those working in this area have felt the decline in recent years. Certainly many data points have been released recently claiming this to be the case.

I have anecdotal evidence for it and at least in the Indian film industry, we have seen up to 60% decline in jobs, more or less across the board. There has also been a decline in box office figures and inflation adjusted, it is even worse. What is more, there is about a 30-40% decline in budgets in general, including top film star fees.

You can read it in news articles, Oscar speeches and a push by actors to convince audiences to go to the cinema. Despite much of this, the audience behavior has changed by the rise of streaming and as a result it has affected what kind of films end up in the cinemas.

Here in India, there has been a huge decline in quality of film work in the commercial space but a rise of great film making in the independent and smaller space. It is difficult to do good work and survive. You also need to constantly work in film scoring to make it financially viable, which has always been a huge problem for me.

Do you visit the cinema often? Has the rate of cinema viewing gone down for you personally? What about people around you?

Has this art form turned on itself? Is it too referential? Are we competing for screen space with Tik-Tok/Instagram? Is it the quality of the work?

What are your thoughts?

[Guy Rowland]

That's interesting Tanuj my sense is very similar here in the UK and the US. It seems a relatively good time for small independents, and a bad time for everything else.

I am visiting the cinema less. All the factors you say apply, all are important. I think superhero movies kind of wrecked big budget blockbusters, very few seem to break through to mainstream audiences these days.

For everything else there's Netflix. The technical quality of home viewing is very high now, cinema struggles to feel as unique as it once did. Also there is no production quality bar now between film and TV. It's just different durations, basically.

One genre that has suffered perhaps more than others, which tends to get overlooked, is comedy. There is something really important to the shared laughter in comedy films in the cinema. There's very few out and out cinema comedies now. The most resilient genre seems to be children's / family films, presumably because it's great to get the little tykes out of the house for 2 hours. Inside Out 2 made $1.7bn (and was pretty damn good, fortunately).

The films that have broken through in the last couple of years have been hard to draw lessons from. Who knew Oppenheimer would have been so big? Or Barbie? Or Everything Everywhere All At Once?

[Tobias Escher]

Quite similar here in Germany, too, I think.
I can't add anything of note about the business side, but as for going to the movies, it has gone down to absolutely 0 in the last years for me. Last time I was at a movie theatre was in 2019.

The main reasons are:
- Local cinema closed long ago, so the nearest (decent) one is a half hour drive. Add to that parking fees, suuuuuuuper tiny parking garages which I am prone to dinging my car on, and I just can't be bovvered if you get the reference.
- I don't watch localized movies, so that only leaves a few showings, if any.
- I really dislike popcorn and soda, and I know full well that a theatre actually loses money if I just get a ticket.
- Tickets are so expensive nowadays, I can usually get the BluRay for half of the ticket when it comes out. And I do.
- I have a nice Ambilight TV, Dolby Atmos setup, and the comfort of my own couch. Movie theatres just don't beat that, with overblown, boomy bass, dirty seats, someone munching on popcorn and stupid ads.
- To be honest, I haven't seen anything interesting new for years and years and I don't really need new stuff. Even my "want to re-watch once a year" list, will EASILY last me over a year.
- I don't even have Netflix, same reason. My BluRay "pile of shame" is so big, I likely won't even get through it in my lifetime.
- Also I catch myself watching less and less films and series. No TV at all, don't even have regular TV access. Mostly I read, go to the horsies...
- Heck, I watch more stuff on Youtube (Documentaries...) than actual "TV".
- Maybe it's just saturation and being spoiled for choice. To be honest, the list of "shit I want to do before I kick the bucket" is so long, there's not really time for watching movies, and I don't miss it.

[Luke]

Tobias and Guy summed it up well for me too. Marvel and DC superhero films are not something I would ever pay money to watch. Streaming has made it so easy and the quality, as mentioned, is so high now that I find myself invested much more in series (especially of the limited kind) than films.

Super interesting take on the comedy genre though, Guy. My most memorable moments in a theater were either horror or comedy films; I think that says something about the shared aspect of the delivery.

I am seeing a bit of a renaissance in the Indie space - it feels in part like a strong rebuke of AI encroaching on our creativity. Personally, I have been thinking about plan B, just in case it all goes down the drain and it is no longer possible to make a living at this. Though I fervently hope it doesn't happen, for both obvious reasons and my own laziness.

[Geoff Grace]

I have spent a sizable chunk of my career working in the record industry and another large chunk working in film and television. I worked in the record industry during its financial peak, in the ’90s and first few years of the 2000s, and then moved to film and television, after “file sharing” and then streaming crippled and completely transformed the record industry.

I knew it was only a matter of time before the Internet transformed the film and television industry as well, but I was able to make a go of it for roughly 20 years. Now, I’m back to record industry work, at least for the time being, doing archiving for a major label. The film and television scene here in LA is the worst it’s ever been. I heard through the grapevine that a major studio in town with 30 lots is only currently filming in one of them. Let that sink in for a moment…

There’s also a bit of an exodus, after the fires, of people who work on films, who no longer have a home, are struggling for work, and are looking to rebuild elsewhere. Some are going to one of the many places where production has moved, like Atlanta. Others are looking for a new career and a fresh start altogether.

As for going to theaters, I can count on one hand how many times I’ve gone since COVID started. I tend to avoid indoor gatherings. I’ve stopped going to the NAMM Show as well.

Best,

Geoff

[Guy Rowland]

So interesting, Geoff, that your current work is archiving music. Still work in archiving....

When TV first appeared for the masses in the 1950s, cinema was hit badly. It responded with widescreen, better sound and hey they even tried 3D. Cinema found its place.

I think cinema is out of technical tricks now. Home is just too good, too easy with bottomless choice and instant access. And with HDR vision and Dolby Digital for those who care about such things.

People still want to watch stuff sure, but as you said in your OP Tanuj, the rest of the internet has massively diluted interest. In an era of 4 TV channels, EastEnders (UK soap) used to get over 15m views regularly, in 1986 the Christmas special hit 30m! Last week they did a live special where their audience massively jumped to 3.7m, about 1.5m more than normal.

My own personal view - with little hard data to back it up - is that people still want great stories and they have become jaded by endless cookie cutter procedurals and dead teenage girl in the woods stories. We are drowned in content (despicable word). I think there's also a market for escapism in whatever form (god knows we all need it), be it shiny floor dancing shows or what have you.

I sorta have to believe that for cinema and TV drama, there is always going to be a market for well-told stories somewhere. But gadzooks I tell ya, it's hard.

[Tobias Escher]

3D was about the only thing that got me in theatres, because I genuinely enjoyed it on the big screen. After they stopped 3D in theatres, I held on with my old TV and basically only watched 3D movies, I have more than 100. Then that TV broke, and now I can't watch any of them because 3D TVs do not exist anymore

The mention of horror and comedy are interesting. I would never, ever go to a comedy film in a movie theatre. The constant laughing would drive me insane. Big action flicks are nice on the big screen, but marred by too high volume for me. But honestly a Marvel movie would be about the only thing that COULD still get me into a movie theatre. But for that to happen the film would actually need to be GOOD, which is unlikely.

At least for me it's also the issue that I will only see a movie in theatre if I like it. So for me, I'd want the BluRay first, and THAT would get me into the theatre. Same with actual theatre, by the way. Almost every play, musical, etc I've seen on video, I have then seen live because of it.

PS: Finally, also in the TV seres space, my pet peeve is that everyone hates everyone. Take AWESOME old series like Stargate Atlantis. It was great! Then came Universe, and the whole point is that everyone would like to kill everyone else (on their own team!), no one wants to be there. In the very rare instances they are not at each other's throat, they are in each other's pants.
Breaking Bad - most boring show I was ever forced to watch by.a friend. Why would I WILLINGLY watch a dude become the worst of society and in the process kill everyone he loves?
And that' coming from the biggest fan of Dexter on the planet! It's not about the violence, it's about the senseless glorification of something we should strive to eradicate. What's next? "Making a Movement - the awesome work of Heinrich Himmler"?

And that's my last pet peeve with local productions. Everything German is either
- Former GDR stuff. or former Nazi stuff.
- the worst comedy on the planet
- a "problem film". I don't want to see the XXXXXXth rehash of a kid on the spectrum getting bullied at school and everyone being really, really, really concerned about it. But nobody DOING anything about it.
- or the usual "Friday evening crime drama", which is 1% of actual "crime solving work", 9% of "vaguely crime-related scenes", and 90% "personal life of the detective, extended family, their rebellious daughter in puberty, and minute-long scenes of all of them shagging their respective current partner(s). Topped off with 2 pre-made Omnisphere patches.

[Guy Rowland]

Breaking Bad - most boring show I was ever forced to watch by.a friend. Why would I WILLINGLY watch a dude become the worst of society and in the process kill everyone he loves?
And that' coming from the biggest fan of Dexter on the planet! It's not about the violence, it's about the senseless glorification of something we should strive to eradicate. What's next? "Making a Movement - the awesome work of Heinrich Himmler"?

Oh I can't let that go! Breaking Bad was absolutely NOT glorification. It was a good old fashioned morality play.

Agree about the crimes shows though.

Sorry, back to movies. I do mourn the old fashioned adult blockbuster. Think of stuff like Die Hard, Speed, Con Air, The Fugitive. All for grown ups, and all funny. They weren't all relentlessly bleak and doom laden. Each of those has moments that really makes me laugh. Really miss that.

[Linos]

One of the reasons I don't go to the blockbusters anymore is that there weren't any that really interested me. The Marvel universe or the umpteenth instalment of some superhero film or other just isn't that exciting. The Lord of the Rings trilogy was my most memorable blockbuster cinema experience. I remember being blown away by everything, the cinematography, the storytelling, the music, of course. After the first part, I couldn't wait for the second and third.

In recent years, nothing has come close to that experience for me. I guess it doesn't help that most films are available for streaming in one form or another. I also hate how loud modern cinemas are. I can't go to the cinema without earplugs. I hate that, so I don't go. When I do go, it is for arthouse films, retrospectives or at a festival.

I suppose a shift from cinema to streaming services wouldn't be so bad for artists if streaming paid fair royalties. As it is, a career that paid the bills in cinema is far from sustainable in streaming.

[Tanuj Tiku]

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts!

The common aspects from most posts so far is as following:

* Large scale films just don't pack enough of a punch for you anymore, indicating a drop in quality film making.
* Going to the cinema is not as convenient as watching it at home.
* Due to technological advancements in home cinema, you are satiated by the at home 'cinema' experience.
* Cinemas are too expensive and too loud.
* Rise of quality with streaming

I have some follow up questions if you guys don't mind?

1. Do you feel there is any connection to age with regards to going out to the cinema? Are your children and or younger family members also not going to the cinema at the same rate as yourself? What about your parents and their generation? Did they go out a lot when they were younger and also experience a steady decline?

2. Was your decline in going out to the cinema steady even when better films were being made over time?

3. Do you feel that technically, a cinema still has an edge over watching something at home? Or do you feel that soundbards/home theater systems and Dolby vision on flat panels is comparable to at least a 2K perforated screen with Dolby Atmos/5.1/7.1? Do acoustics make any difference for you?

4. Is a shared experience in the cinema a positive or a negative for you?

[Guy Rowland]

For me:

1. I think it's less across the board. Animation is still providing a service for families, despite the cost, but pretty much everyone else is going less I think.

2. I seem to have less time to go, my days feel very full. But here's the thing - I had a movie pass last year. Months would go by without me ever using it. Just very little to lure me away from work.

3. I prefer the cinema here. My local is very good actually - it's loud but not excessively so, it's perfect for me. I find I can hear dialogue very well, easier than at home even with it set up to maximise dialogue.

4. Depends. I usually like quiet daytime screenings, and we all know how awful some audiences can be. But I remember good audiences very fondly. When I wrote my last, I was thinking of watching When Harry Met Sally in 1989. I always remember the reaction after "I'll have what she's having". It's such a lovely communal thing, and it's tangible proof the film is working. Oh, and the reaction at the end of the first Back To The Future. Or the premiere of Jurassic Park, which was like a gig. These are some of my favourite movie memories, and the audience was integral to them.

[FriFlo]

I went to see the new Bob Dylan film yesterday. The film itself was a mixed bag, but that is not the topic of this thread. I don't go to the cinema very often, but I like to from time to time. I mostly go to a small cinema close to my home that does not play any of the big block busters. It is not the proper choice for something like the latest Christopher Nolan movie, but for most films I like to watch it is decent and I feel supporting such a small cinema makes sense to me. I think the big cineplex will have difficulties surviving the next decade.

What I despise about Cinemas is the consumerism. It probably linked to the big multiplex theatres that mostly show movies which also support the same kind of ideology - the marvel universe and most of Hollywood. I don't like going to the movies to see people spending the full ticket price again on food that gets devoured next to me. There is only one thing worse and that is (senior) citizens in a classical concert who unwrap their cough drops completely unaware of the fact that there are people who can hear the high-frequency noise they are producing. But the good thing is, in the small cinemas you rarely experience those negative aspects.

What I don't like (that is also somewhat present in the smaller cinemas) is the level of playback. Yes, in many cinemas they cause hearing damage. That is why I am really careful to watch the next Bond movie ...

What I like about going to the movies is the level of immersion you simply don't get at home. What I also like is watching in public, as you kind of watch differently with other people together. I really have a good sound system at home, but even when I would improve on it even more and buy bigger and better screen, I would still like going to a cinema. I also like the fact that film plays and you cannot stop it. And going out to go see a movie is also a different kind of appreciation that gets lost when you just switch on Netflix.

Regarding your questions:

1. I see even less younger people in the cinema, but it might be due to the kinds of cinemas I go to most of the time.

2. The decline was slow over the years. But - as I said - I like to go there from time to time!

3. The acoustics do matter to me, but the small cinemas I go to don't have a very good sound. I can often hear the walls in louder scenes. For films where the visual and acoustic experience are crucial, I have a half-large cinema I like to go to. It also shows selected films played real film projection (analog copy of the digital movie) and has excellent picture quality. For most films I watch I am however not to obsessed with the quality. I guess, my aversion against the multiplex experience is larger than the desire for better sound and picture. :-)

4. See above ...

[Tobias Escher]

"The Lord of the Rings trilogy was my most memorable blockbuster cinema experience. I remember being blown away by everything, the cinematography, the storytelling, the music, of course. After the first part, I couldn't wait for the second and third."

Same here, and in fact I'm right now re-watching them and love them even more than the first few dozen times I saw them.

As for the questions:
1. Not really, I think. Young kids probably go more, as do teens after school. But I imagine the latter might go less in areas where theatres closed (like my town). Adults, not too sure. Maybe people still go for dates? Talking to people, I see a general decline everywhere primarily due to pricing.
2. I personally went to the movies more when I was younger, but I wouldn't say it was because films were better, even though they were. Nowadays I just do other things and honestly do not even consider seeing a movie.
3. On the cinemas I frequent(ed), no. Horrible, boomy sound. much too loud. Super bad frequency response. Even the cheapest soundbar (I have a rather cheap Samsung atmos bar) are usually much better. Same for the screen. In the theatre it is bigger, but at home at least it's not blurry.
4. If the atmosphere was nice, it would be a positive. But I haven't been to any such movie in (by now) decades. I think it stopped when I was a teenager. People went from being nice and considerate to throwing trash everywhere, talking, very noisily making out, occuying seats other than the ones they paid for, etc...

[Ashermusic]

I used to go to movie theaters a lot. I miss it. It’s definitely more special to see a film with other people as a communal experience.

So why do I hardly ever go?

1. It’s gotten expensive, even with senior prices.
2. Often, yes, it’s too loud.
3. My wife has become a stick in the mud and it’s hard to get her to fog ,and I feel uncomfortable sitting alone in a theater.

But I think the notion that films were better than they are now is bovine scatology. There have always been a lot of great films and crap, and of course evaluating a film is a subjective endeavor.

[Tanuj Tiku]

Thank you all for taking the time to answer the questions and engaging.

We can all see that there are some common answers and others are more personal. In general I think there is a 'feeling' of something being lost over the years. I suppose as we move through life, we will have some of it. For some people Titanic was a the big blockbuster, for others it is Avatar and now Endgame.

Marvel was working very well for many years and has only fallen into a ditch recently. I don't think Marvel has killed cinema. There are issues with the business and the current creative model. The landscape demands good creative output but being too safe has become important. There is also a case of over intellectualizing some things. I don't think there is an answer for every piece of music written or scene filmed. Some things just happen and we don't always know why. Sometimes, the big old machine kills that thing, whatever it is.

With streaming, the issue is trying to sell the same move twice within weeks of having being released. There are many angles and probably they are all true in varying degrees.

I recently did a poll on my Instagram account and about 65% of people said that they have reduced how often they go to the cinema over the last decade because of decline in quality of films. This is in India, of course. 23% said that they prefer to watch movies at home and value streaming as well as home cinema.

My personal view is that home cinema, despite it's merits cannot be compared to the cinema experience on a technical level. We cannot change physics and almost everybody will agree on that. How well the faculties of the cinematic story-telling medium are employed by the film makers is debatable of course. We have a great screen, loudspeaker system and an audiences's potentially undivided attention in a highly controller environment. The onus is on us to tell great stories and deliver 'The Cinematic Experience' to the audiences.