Using filters for timbral inflections-Tanujs Krypton walkthrough

[1gc]

Hi!
(This is directed to Tanuj Tiku, but, please , anyone with something to contribute do so.

Tanuj, in your recent Planet Krypton walkthrough I thought towards the end you helped define the ensemble timbral qualities by adding a filter to your in your final automated volume pass.
I quickly ran through the video again and cannot find this.
Am I wrong in my rememberance?
If not, can you define what kind of filter you'd use for this filter "sweep"?
I can approximate the idea, assigning a filter to a fader through "midi learn" .
That couldn't be a Kontakt function unless all of the libs used are Kontakt libraries.
For myself, I would use the filter on a submaster in the mixer, assigned along with either expression or volume for the final volume automation pass in finishing a mix.
My ignorance is in what kind of a filter to use for this?
Any help would be appreciated-from anyone actually.
Thanks
g.c.

[Tanuj Tiku]

Hi GC, thanks for watching the video.

I am not sure exactly what you mean but I did automate the channel EQ's in a few tracks as well as some automation on master EQ for different reasons. One is to tuck in some unwanted frequencies in specific spots and second is to emulate timbral shifts with volume and EQ boosts/cuts, while keeping the modwheel more or less static.

Say you like the French horn dynamic at a specific Modwheel location but if you go any further - it does open up but its too much. You can massage in some stuff with volume and EQ automation. It is not something I am doing always but it is handy when very specific control is required.

You could map this inside Kontakt too but I don't do that. I just do it using general EQ's. The kontakt technique is great too.

Here is a video from Cinesamples that explains it (I have time stamped it):



If you are talking about TILT filters that I applied to Sample Modeling then those are filter IR's from Numerical sound that I use with VSL convolution to brighten or darken the sound over all. You could do this with many things, including simply EQ's. I also sometimes use the Decapitator with some fattening and dialing the highs down.

[1gc]

Ahh.
So another answer comes for me with this also. I was trying to define how you could get such a rich (Berlin Type) orchestral trombone sound from the S.M. Tbns and Tuba.
I've had them since they 1st came out but have never used them. To me they always sounded like a junior high school kid's 1st lesson on a rental horn with a toilet paper roll stuffed up his bell.
But I've never fully understood what the Forti-Serti Tilt filters do or how to use them.
Are they (the Forti-Serti's) the reason you're able to get such a dark sound into those S.M.Tbns
And I've passed the availability of your Krypton" walkthrough to a couple of friends who have also learned things from them. I enjoyed them greatly
and would hope you will keep them coming.
Thanks again!
g.c.
Stay safe out there Tanuj!

[Tanuj Tiku]

Ahh.
So another answer comes for me with this also. I was trying to define how you could get such a rich (Berlin Type) orchestral trombone sound from the S.M. Tbns and Tuba.
I've had them since they 1st came out but have never used them. To me they always sounded like a junior high school kid's 1st lesson on a rental horn with a toilet paper roll stuffed up his bell.
But I've never fully understood what the Forti-Serti Tilt filters do or how to use them.
Are they (the Forti-Serti's) the reason you're able to get such a dark sound into those S.M.Tbns
And I've passed the availability of your Krypton" walkthrough to a couple of friends who have also learned things from them. I enjoyed them greatly
and would hope you will keep them coming.
Thanks again!
g.c.
Stay safe out there Tanuj!

Thanks GC, we are doing Ok here in Mumbai. Hope you are well too!

Yes, the TILT filters are a nice trick but also you could just use EQ's and other techniques. Reverbs need to be adjusted too. Anything to shave off the harsh sound somewhat. I have attached a picture of a TILT filter you can do in Fabfilter Pro Q3. There is a flat type but also a shelf type.

Please keep in mind that I am not using SM Trombones in Krypton for the later big parts. SM was only used for the opening quiet bits (but also with EW Trombones). However, the Tuba was very much SM throughout.

The big sound is coming from layering Performance Samples Caspian and EW Hollywood Brass trombones - in particular the big bite is from the Trombone Solo in HWB.

Sorry if this is confusing but I don't always stick with one library. Whatever patch works for the situation, I will use it. You will be surprised how forgiving the ear is when switching between libraries. I do this all the time and nobody has raised any issues whatsoever. Even, parts can be forwarded, like a relay race between different patches. I am not sure why people don't pick up on this but possibly its because, if the over all ideas are good and the illusion is not broken (within reason), then the ear simply carries on with the lie and hopefully just enjoying the music.

Finally, I am not a slave to one set of techniques. These things change, depending on the task at hand.

You can check out this thread, where I talk about SM a bit more specifically. May be you will find it useful:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4090&p=58121#p58121

[Tanuj Tiku]

Also, something to keep in mind. I was trying to mimic the original recording. There are perfectly other legitimate ways to do a performance of the same music, which will sound very different.

This is the same thing I did for the Hook Banquet sequence. I was trying to get close to the original recording I had posted. But many other examples posted are also perfectly good, sound wise.

[1gc]

Thanks again Tanuj. Its late here so I'm looking at the new video you included tomorrow.
I have heard about the Forti-Serti going back to Peter Alexander and his LASS classes.
So I was curious about them here. I have the Fab Filt 3 also. I'm going to fool around with your tilt idea.
Thanks again. for all of the input!!
g.c.
And again, be safe. Just need to throw that out to everyone every time there is a communication. To many people leaving way to soon now.

[Guy Rowland]

Just a note of thanks, Tanuj.

[FriFlo]

Tanuj, would you say buying the Forti/Serti products (from VSL or from the guys website for use with altiverb) is worth it in comparison to just using an EQ profile? I don't really understand how the convolution makes it different to an EQ, but of course they say, it is something else. Only, that doesn't tell me so much, I would rather like to know: do you get any results with those filters that you cannot get with an EQ?

EDIT:
In case anyone is wondering what this is: here is Ernest Cholakis' Website with a current sale of his general impulse response collection:

http://www.numericalsound.com/hollywood ... count.html

Oops! FORTI and SERTI are no longer available on the VSL website, as it seems ...

https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t ... post271225

[Tanuj Tiku]

FriFlo, I think you can certainly do without the TILT filter IR's. I am not sure either why they are different. I bought it a decade ago from VSL and perhaps, I use them because I have it. I remember reading up on it back then but I can't really remember anything in detail.

There are many ways to remove harshness, as you know. I have even used a thick setting on Decapitator and darkening the 'tone' with their on-board setting. Again, there are many situations where I don't use the TILT filters. A simple EQ works.

I would say the TILT filters would be much lower in the list of priorities.

[FriFlo]

Ok, thanks! I thought the timbral responses might have some quality the usual tools can’t achieve. But now that I think about it more, it doesn’t even make sense, as an IR cannot “react” to different dynamics. It must be a fixed change of the sound, because it is only one sample. That makes it rather logical that it probably can’t do more than an EQ (besides adding reflexions and tail).

I guess I am looking for something else. Maybe a dynamic EQ is the better cure for sample modeling tracks ... probably together with loads of other things like you just said. But this is the reason I keep coming back to samples! My tracks are loaded with plugins before anything sounds good and that always distracts me more from composing than having to patch together samples.

[Tanuj Tiku]

Ok, thanks! I thought the timbral responses might have some quality the usual tools can’t achieve. But now that I think about it more, it doesn’t even make sense, as an IR cannot “react” to different dynamics. It must be a fixed change of the sound, because it is only one sample. That makes it rather logical that it probably can’t do more than an EQ (besides adding reflexions and tail).

I guess I am looking for something else. Maybe a dynamic EQ is the better cure for sample modeling tracks ... probably together with loads of other things like you just said. But this is the reason I keep coming back to samples! My tracks are loaded with plugins before anything sounds good and that always distracts me more from composing than having to patch together samples.

Yes, you can get perfectly good results with just using an EQ. Dynamic EQ's are great and you can even automate EQ's. You can do a test run with this free plugin which is excellent - https://www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-nova/

Back in the day, numerical sound, sounded like the holy grail to me. They used the word 'Hollywood' of course. I was at a very impressionable stage in my musical life and it conjured up images of excellence in sound. Of course, even after getting all of that, it nearly sounded the same. I was simply not skilled enough.

This is not to say that Numerical Sound does not make great products but now, Hollywood just doesn't carry the same zing to it for me