The Sound Board

Daryl wrote: ↑Nov 21, 2018 3:09 am

Tanuj Tiku wrote: ↑Nov 21, 2018 1:07 am It must be tough to release orchestral libraries today because so much is already out there and by now most people have at least a couple of options. And so it puts more pressure on developers to offer something that is fresh and can motivate the buyer.

You'd think so, but from what I can see there has been nothing new and fresh for 10-15 years. Just variations of "more of the same". Sample Modeling (and others) did produce something new and fresh, but the limitations (or in some cases perceived limitations) were never really conquered.

Yes, that is true. I guess, I was talking more from a sales POV. Also, why I said that if the library is good and it is a bit pricier, professional users will have no issues paying the big bucks. Provided, it is indeed something fresh and good of course!

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Nov 21, 2018 3:35 am So how do you view this offering Daryl, at least on paper? It doesn't look like Just Another Brass Library to me, and Audiobro do have a good reputation for detailed work.

For me the thing that really doesn't work in other libraries, is solo instrument crossfading between dynamic layers. I've never heard it sound good, especially when listening up close for a detailed solo. The rest will be a "suck it and see", as I see nothing new, except if it is just done to a higher standard than the rest of the libraries out there.

I do see it as new, not a conceptual leap perhaps but in terms of overall scope.... 30 individual instruments controlled by auto-dvisi sections... can't really think of anything else that can claim this kind of paradigm. We all have to wait and see if it actually delivers of course, but definitely not Just Another Brass Library imo.

As to cost, I paid something like $1000 for Lass in 2010 or so and it is still my go to string library for nearly everything I do. If this is the same, it’s money well spent. Anxious to hear more.

Lawrence wrote: ↑Nov 21, 2018 12:32 am I had an interesting discussion with a developer about pricing a few years back. I held that lower prices/more units sold would do better than a higher price/less units sold model. His opinion/research didn't agree. It would be interesting to know definitively, although I imagine it varies from case to case.

Interesting Lawrence.

The shallower end of the pool has more buyers, but it also has more developers, and the buyers are more price conscious. So if you release a no frills brass library - take Adventure Brass as an example - people might talk about it for a while, but then along comes Caspian. Or, you run the risk of making your product just a tiny bit too feature rich and get undercut by everyone else. Look at AI Talos series or CineSamples 90s Brass series, both of which are perfectly fine libraries but they have undoubtedly lost sales by being $200 per brass section, which is (ridiculously, when you think about it) no longer considered a budget price for individual orchestral sections... whereas if they had cut a few more corners they'd be in position to compete with CSB or AngryBrass 2.

So there are benefits to aiming at "the deep end" of the sample library market. And even consciously pricing out the hobbyists from buying your product. People will kvetch just like they did when they found out Afflatus wasn't going to be $350. But the product is here to stay. People still talk about LASS.... it will always be in the window every Christmas.

Daryl wrote: ↑Nov 21, 2018 3:06 am .. my main gripe with many orchestral sample library developers is that the QA is terrible

Yep.

Daryl wrote: ↑Nov 21, 2018 4:31 am For me the thing that really doesn't work in other libraries, is solo instrument crossfading between dynamic layers. I've never heard it sound good, especially when listening up close for a detailed solo.

That’s the problem that bothers me the most with brass libraries (and woodwinds, solo strings, etc). SampleModeling has its issues, but the shaping of dynamics is truly excellent.

I’m tempted to try Chris Hein brass because those samples are phase-locked. (OTOH, I sprung for the Chris Hein Solo Strings because they include phase-locked samples, but those sound lifeless and 2D, in contrast to the CHSS non-phase-locked samples, which thankfully sound much nicer.)

If Audiobro has conquered the “dynamic crossfade problem” with this brass library, I’ll be sorely tempted to buy it. If not (and the marketing doesn’t seem to suggest that they have), I’ll pass and wait for someone else to make that breakthrough someday (yes, I know it might be a loooong wait).

I've never understood how the CH brass phase locked thing works, so I just did a google. Phase locking is fine for different mics at different distances on the same source, but different recordings altogether is another matter. Looks like there's no such thing as a free lunch - in order to lock the samples, you get some slightly mechanical buzzing over them all (as described by one unhappy customer). This actually makes perfect sense to me, I could never really understand how it could work without artificially manipulating the samples for complete uniformity.

You are all right, solving this is the big problem with solo sample instruments, and conceptually this strikes me as a very big problem MSB will have to overcome, though I don't really know how they will do it. Its always been a happy bonus of ensemble libraries that you don't really notice this, so it's another reason why the building-ensembles-out-of-solo-instruments is such a risky move. That said, maybe the same aural trick applies - 6 solo instruments all crossfading making up an ensemble might sound not so different to recorded ensembles crossfading. Anyone have any experience with this with, say, Dimension Brass?

not a huge fan of CH BRASS

This sounds promising but probably a bit rich for me.

Euphonium, 2 x cimbassi and 2 x picc trumpets is very niche but cool.

Im concerned about the upper registers of the instruments being stretched and pitch shifted samples.

KyleJudkins wrote: ↑Nov 22, 2018 5:34 pm not a huge fan of CH BRASS

It has its uses - i find that if I run it through EQ preset I made to emulate one of the vintage AEA ribbons it is far nicer to use.

trumpoz wrote: ↑Nov 22, 2018 8:36 pm Im concerned about the upper registers of the instruments being stretched and pitch shifted samples.

Yes, I noticed that too. And it's not by a small margin!

trumpoz wrote: ↑Nov 22, 2018 8:41 pm

KyleJudkins wrote: ↑Nov 22, 2018 5:34 pm not a huge fan of CH BRASS

It has its uses - i find that if I run it through EQ preset I made to emulate one of the vintage AEA ribbons it is far nicer to use.

i dont mind his solo strings - but idk, i tried hein horns and the orchestral brass because unlike samplemodelling brass - it would work with the roli's pitch bend requirements... It just from the ground up requires more work, and i dont think i could even produce better results with all the extra work vs sample modeling

XD

ANOTHER BRASS LIBRARY FOLKS

https://www.aaronventure.com/infinite-brass

had no idea that aaron was secretly making instruments, but this definitely seems like a step up from SM - given that it's designed to be 1 patch playable per instrument(divisi)

I'm also interested in the ensemble sound when all the individual instruments playing together, but the Audiobros are smart guys, and LASS is very well done.

If you take a closer look at the patch list you see that there are recorded horns a2, the only ensemble instruments. I'm no way a specialist with brass instruments, but maybe horns are tricky ones. So with the horns a2 you will definitely get an ensemble sound.

Looking forward to the release of MSB and LASS 3 in 2019.

Me too ^

Me three. For me CineBrass Core and Pro is a very solid workhorse, and HB has some great alternative patches. Add in the Symphobias, Ark 1, some VSL and other odds and sods, I'm certainly not lacking. It will take something genuinely remarkable in fact to have me buying another brass library, something an order above everything else on more than one level. MSB has the potential to do this, but of course we have to wait to see / hear.

If they said Q1 2019, I predict a release date of March 31st.

Well, the day is nearly upon us - 2 days time as I type, on April 15th. This has been a good thread, good to get back up to speed regarding all the issues.

At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, its all going to be on the sound now, and we're about to find that out. Hopefully there's proper walkthroughs, not just wowee demos. How's the crossfading? How do the sections sound when massed? I'm really hoping it all works out, I've warmed to it as I've thought about it more. The attack thing alone is mouthwatering.

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Apr 13, 2019 1:30 pm Well, the day is nearly upon us - 2 days time as I type, on April 15th. This has been a good thread, good to get back up to speed regarding all the issues.

At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, its all going to be on the sound now, and we're about to find that out. Hopefully there's proper walkthroughs, not just wowee demos. How's the crossfading? How do the sections sound when massed? I'm really hoping it all works out, I've warmed to it as I've thought about it more. The attack thing alone is mouthwatering.

Guy, I too am watching very closely in lots of hope!

I really hope that there is something new with playability and programming. I have no doubt, it will have the sound. Many libraries do. What is shockingly difficult to do is create a living, breathing phrase out of them.

Outside of Samplemodeling (which takes a fair bit of time to work with), I have had spectacular results with Performance Samples off late, as a top layer. And these are just single patches - it is just so different from what is out there with remarkable results and superb value for money.

And so, I am looking for a genuine step up in working with samples with moderate ease, while offering realism.

Performance samples have certainly changed my view on a few things. But, I am watching in great expectation.

Performance Samples have entirely flown under my radar Tanuj - what's the deal there?

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Apr 13, 2019 2:30 pm Performance Samples have entirely flown under my radar Tanuj - what's the deal there?

As per Jasper, the developer - he basically cuts samples from performed and connected pre-material. So, you feel a bit of connection between the notes. There is only a single patch and it is entirely playable. There is nothing switchable. Everything is switched automatically, in a way I have not experienced in any other library so far. There are three mic positions. I also like his approach. Upfront, he has mentioned the limitations and known issues with each of his offerings. There is no marketing hype - just the plain truth. It does not always work but for many things, it is elegantly simple and sounds very good as well as musical.

What you will hear now is just played simply on the keyboard with adjustments in the timing to get the phrasing right. That is it. It is not out of the box sound. I have made some tweaks with EQ, added reverb.

This is the Caspian library with French Horns, Trumpets and Trombones. Ensembles only. A new brass offering is on its way - called Angry Brass. There isn't much information available yet. I think, Jasper is on to something and I am happy to support him. I am hoping for more detailed releases from him with more customisations in the future.

Here is a work in progress:

* P-Samples Contextual - Layered with East West Horns, Trombones and Metropolis Ark 1 Trombones, Tubas. This is a hybrid mock-up approach.

*Performance Samples Only

Huh, thanks Tanuj, I must have been living under a rock. Sounds fabulous in your hands. I'll keep an eye on 'em.

Very impressive sound you got there, Tanuj.

By the way, Jasper's strings libraries are satisfying things to work with as well. The man seems to have an ear for sampling the useable essence. While my first purchase, the Soaring Strings, though good, still contained a few distracting weaknesses (some nasal-sounding whining sustains here and there), the two other libraries I bought since — the Fluids and the Con Moto Violins B — contain high-quality, inspiring material.

_

Piet De Ridder wrote: ↑Apr 14, 2019 3:38 am Very impressive sound you got there, Tanuj.

By the way, Jasper's strings libraries are satisfying things to work with as well. The man seems to have an ear for sampling the useable essence. While my first purchase, the Soaring Strings, though good, still contained a few distracting weaknesses (some nasal-sounding whining sustains here and there), the two other libraries I bought since — the Fluids and the Con Moto Violins B — contain high-quality, inspiring material.

_

Soaring Strings is actually another developer, although he seems to have used similar approach in recording those legatos (derived from performance):
https://www.musicalsampling.com
Con moto and Fluid Shorts is Performance Samples:
https://performancesamples.com

@Tanuj: that really does sound good!
So far, I only bought the fluid shorts from performance samples and nothing from musical sampling. But both of those developers really seem to push forward what I actually look for: patches, that make things possible, that always sounded fake with most (or all) other libraries. This far, the only thing that kept me from buying those is that I prefer to have a more complete library regarding articulations - at least like Cinematic Studio Series - preferably like Orchestral Tools (regarding wealth of options). But probably it is not really doable to finance a huge library with that much quality and content while staying on the cheaper side - few people seem spend more than $1000 on one library regardless of its content and value. That is unfortunate, but you probably cannot do much about it. I am also having difficulties spending a lot of cash on a library, simply because most developers have been barely waiting for more than a year to dump their new stuff for 40% off or less ... that makes it hard to trust anyone these days ...