Sample Modeling / French Horn & Tuba v3

[Daryl]

Oh, it has no intelligent separation of chords? Shame.

So called polyphonic legato makes absolutely no sense, as the controller data for one line would never be the same as for another. If it was, it would just sound blocky. For staccato lines with a traditional sample library one can get away with it, providing that you are a good enough keyboard player to control each finger sufficiently.

Look, the thing is, once you start using these instruments, you have to change your way of thinking., They are instruments that need to be performed, not sample libraries, where you piece bits and pieces together and try to make a cohesive whole.

[Guy Rowland]

..but if you're going to have a unison mode at all, why not make it as useful as possible? You can have humanisation parameters etc, as well as the divisi script. It won't be as good as manually performing every line, but hey its a speed trade off. And it would be a helluva lot better than sending every note to everything.

Maybe I misunderstood some of what this feature can do. But since it was a selling point of v3, I figured it should be set up pretty well.

[ZeeCount]

<p>Stunning work Sascha! Did you try adjusting the harmonics to reduce some of those overtones? That's my biggest complaint about the SM Flutes, which to my ears have too much of the 1st harmonic and not enough of the higher order ones, making them sound wooden. I've mentioned this to SM, and they say that they will be adding harmonic control to SWAM in a future update, but I don't know when this will be happening.</p>

I tried to work with that Timbral Shaping thing and first I thought it was sensational. But when I adjusted the overtones to a good sound on one note... it sounded unnatural on other notes. That concludes to me, that obviously overtones don't behave the same on every basenote on an instrument. So in the end I didn't use Timbral Shaping.

Interesting. Did you try automating the Timbral shaping, or did you decide it was entering diminishing returns territory?

[givemenoughrope]

Incredible, Sasha!

I wonder how easy it would have been to glue together with SPAT...? Maybe not much.

Where are the click and breath noises coming from?

[Udo]

Great demo, Sacha! Hope you don't mind, I did put a link to it on VI-C.

[Guy Rowland]

Sasha - if you can face it, and if you'd be willing to indulge me, I'd love to hear your version of Eternal Father, but with all the great mixing work you did removed, and instead a time limit of about 5 minutes spent adding SM's own positioning tools - just slap 'em on rough and ready. I'd love to get an idea of what's possible with good programming and orchestrating, but without the whole day spent sprucing it up afterwards. I'd understand if you can't face it, but no harm in asking I figured...

[kpc]

Sasha - if you can face it, and if you'd be willing to indulge me, I'd love to hear your version of Eternal Father, but with all the great mixing work you did removed, and instead a time limit of about 5 minutes spent adding SM's own positioning tools - just slap 'em on rough and ready. I'd love to get an idea of what's possible with good programming and orchestrating, but without the whole day spent sprucing it up afterwards. I'd understand if you can't face it, but no harm in asking I figured...

That would be a great comparison. But like Guy, I would totally understand if you didn't want to post this for various reasons.

btw, Your example is exquisite.

[tack]

Sascha, what did you end up using for ERs?

[Raymond_Kemp]

Excellent work Sascha,
You get out what you put in.................

[tack]

Oops, reading comprehension fail. Sorry for the redundant question.

[RobS]

sounds not bad at all to me

[lucor]

I have to agree with Rob, apart from the d minor chord at 0:35 (some sort of feedback?) and the Trumpet being a bit harsh and sticking out a bit too much at 1:46, it sounds pretty great for me on the first listen.

[Guy Rowland]

Sasha, thanks so much - way above and beyond the call of duty. I very much hear the problem - it almost sounds like digital aliasing, doesn't it? That does sound an absolute bugger to get rid of. Of course I immediately went back to check your wonderful real mix to hear what you did, and I'm not surprised it took you all day because you really tamed it. Is it me or is it mainly confined to the horn though? Those trumpets sounded very good even in their raw state.

Again, huge thanks. Oh, and I see from the expression data how useful that breath controller would be, sculpting every note in a way it would be very hard to do on a wheel but must be 2nd nature to a wind player with a controller.

[kpc]

Thanks Sascha! What a masterclass for me. Terrific to hear the before and after. My ears are no where as tuned as you and many others here, so this is a great way to try and hear what you all are hearing.

Thanks again!!
kc

[Hannes_F]

I very much like the fact that Sascha's dry version sounds like 'work'. That is how it is supposed to be imho. Playing an instrument is work, it is exhausting, and sometimes it even hurts physically. Then you add the gloss of room acoustics to it and the sound gets somehow detached from the sweat and strain, becomes more glorious and shiny. But underneath there is still the energy that comes from the very effort. This is something I only rarely sense with sample productions but here it is present.

[Ashermusic]

I very much like the fact that Sascha's dry version sounds like 'work'. That is how it is supposed to be imho. Playing an instrument is work, it is exhausting, and sometimes it even hurts physically. Then you add the gloss of room acoustics to it and the sound gets somehow detached from the sweat and strain, becomes more glorious and shiny. But underneath there is still the energy that comes from the very effort. This is something I only rarely sense with sample productions but here it is present.

Well, maybe so, but in my experience in LA back when I had orchestras, their brilliance was such that they made difficult things look easy and THAT is more what we should be trying to achieve IMHO.

[tack]

I found BWW Exp B (I don't own C yet) was frustrating and problematic with a breath controller.

When you enable "niente" (necessary so when you're not breathing air the note stops) and then stop breathing while keeping a note held, after that point it just doesn't behave right. The sample continues to "play out" (in silence) as long as the note is held, and so if I gave another sharp breath, it doesn't restart the note, rather it fades in at the point where the sample left off -- which could be silence if the sample has run its course.

I may have explained that poorly. I can demonstrate in a video if anyone wants.

Sascha if there's any trick to improve BWW Exp packs with a breath controller I'd definitely be interested to learn.

[Hannes_F]

I very much like the fact that Sascha's dry version sounds like 'work'. That is how it is supposed to be imho. Playing an instrument is work, it is exhausting, and sometimes it even hurts physically. Then you add the gloss of room acoustics to it and the sound gets somehow detached from the sweat and strain, becomes more glorious and shiny. But underneath there is still the energy that comes from the very effort. This is something I only rarely sense with sample productions but here it is present.

Well, maybe so, but in my experience in LA back when I had orchestras, their brilliance was such that they made difficult things look easy and THAT is more what we should be trying to achieve IMHO.

Jay the wiseacre, as usual. Honestly, I think I have been (and still am) a bit closer to the real thing than you. So you can decide, either you pick up an aspect that you did not have up to now or you stay on your pedestal.

EDIT: Ah, nevermind, it's hopeless.

[Ashermusic]

I am not being a wise guy at all, that is simply my experience.

And you, as an orchestral instrument player, may be closer to the real thing, but I have had the good fortune to be part of over a couple of hundred sessions with some of the best players in the world since 1971 and that is what I have seen. The great ones make the diffcult look easy and that should be our goal as well.

If you disagree, fine.

[Hannes_F]

There is the look of it and there is what it is. Each to his own.

This is why I have ceased sharing insights in forums. No matter what you say, somebody is going to post the opposite.

[Ashermusic]

This is why I have ceased sharing insights in forums. No matter what you say, somebody is going to post the opposite.

And apparently that is not acceptable to you?

Funny, I always take the position that while there is nothing I can learn from someone who says, "You are right" there is always the potential to learn from someone who sees it differently.

Just me, I guess.

[tack]

Tack, the problem might be the breath controller because it its detached from what you do on the keyboard. On the EWI, when you stop breathing, a note-off event is sent at the same time, so its behaves correctly.

Thanks for that insight Sascha. It makes sense. I think most/all breath controllers don't send note on/off events, rather just send CC events. Sounds like a full wind controller is needed to make that experience ideal.

Although I think I could script my way around this, by having an insert before Kontakt (or by using a Kontakt multiscript) to inject a note-off event during a transition to a zero CC, and a note-on event on the transition from zero. Sounds like it should work, and not too difficult.

It'd be great to be able to use my breath controller with BWW solo instruments.

[Hannes_F]

there is always the potential to learn from someone who sees it differently.

That is exactly what you missed here. Instead of appreciating an unusual point of view that hardly ever has been part of these forums and therefore giving it a chance by thinking about for maybe ten minutes or one week and then forming an opinion you needed to snapshoot.

I know exactly that mastery on an instrument makes everything look easy. People have told me just that about my own playing numerous times. But that is a commonplace, and I wanted to add a different angle to it. If you are close enough you realize the work in it, also with world class players. Especially true for horn and wind players.

I have been rehearsing and performing 6 feet away from this man and he certainly is not second rate on any scale. Watch him and know that oboe players are often short from fainting out, and you might get a new sight on this.


And that is what I appreciated at Sascha's rendering. It is not just an effortless (gratis) sound triggered by moving a fader back and forth that can be infinitely hold at fff ad nauseam, but real, exhausting air control (certainly not fully as exhausting as the real thing but still), and exactly that gives a quality that I miss so often. It is energy added.

[Ashermusic]

And what did we learn from you Jay? That you watched great people since 1971 doing great things and that they made it look easy to you? Impressive.

Btw. I didn't want to write this in the first place but since Hannes offers me that reference: Your postings here are the main reason, I almost quit the forum. In fact I had done it already, but Piet convinced me to give it another try.

Yes, I DO find it impressive how easy great players make difficult things look. It is a constant source of wonderment to me whether in an orchestral session or on a basketball court. I don't know why it wouldn't impress others as well.

I am truly sorry that you feel that way. Just sharing my experiences and views, and never insisting or implying (I hope) that anyone else has to see it the same way.

[Ashermusic]

there is always the potential to learn from someone who sees it differently.

That is exactly what you missed here. Instead of appreciating an unusual point of view that hardly ever has been part of these forums and therefore giving it a chance by thinking about for maybe ten minutes or one week and then forming an opinion you needed to snapshoot.

I know exactly that mastery on an instrument makes everything look easy. People have told me just that about my own playing numerous times. But that is a commonplace, and I wanted to add a different angle to it. If you are close enough you realize the work in it, also with world class players. Especially true for horn and wind players.

I have been rehearsing and performing 6 feet away from this man and he certainly is not second rate on any scale. Watch him and know that oboe players are often short from fainting out, and you might get a new sight on this.

2 reactions:

1. It is a very valid criticism that I respond too quickly sometimes, and i will work on improving in that area.

2. That said, I think that clip proves my point. What he is achieving is very difficult, but you would not know that from watching him at all.