piano sus strings movement

[RobS]

This is something that's driving me crazy... is it so hard to sample a piano key in such a way that it retains the movement of the strings?
Please have a listen to this example, it's just C#-E-A center of the keyboard. First is Brokenheartstring piano by Auddict, then what should have been the mother of all pianos, the Steinway D by VSL. To my ears the Auddict sounds like a real piano (nevermind the attack, only the sustained portion) whereas the VSL is just dead to me. Well I know that the longer the strings the more they become rigid and stable in terms of pitch, but I have played many grands and none suffered this issue. Am I imagining things? Could be an interesting test to do before purchasing a sampled piano library...

PianoSusQuality.mp3

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[Lawrence]

Yep Rob, I hear it and have been fighting it forever. It’s one reason I stuck with the Art Vista VGP2 for years, and am now using the Modern D.

[RobS]

Good to know Larry. If you have the time would you please post an mp3 of exactly the same A chord first inversion with the Modern D? That could help me make a decision

[Piet De Ridder]

Here's that A chord rendered with six sampled Steinways, Rob:

(1) Synthogy Ivory German D
(2) ViLabs Modern D
(3) Chocolate Audio Steinway D
(4) Orchestra Tools James Newton Howard Piano
(5) Insanity The Stein
(6) Premier Soundfactory Piano Premier 2

I’ve got a few more, and plenty of non-Steinway libraries as well, so if you like to hear some others, just ask, and there’s a good chance I might be able to do examples of those too.

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[RobS]

Yes! Thank you Piet, as soon as I get back home I’ll listen to the examples. Among them is there a favourite of yours?

[Piet De Ridder]

Solely based on this microscopic test, I would, cautiously, say that the Ivory and the Premier deliver the best result here, but as a test, this is obviously nowhere near sufficient to declare them favourites and the others also-rans. In fact, I wouldn’t be able to draw any conclusions from this, if I wasn’t already familiar with all these libraries. (Also: if we’d done this excerise an octave — or any interval, for that matter — higher or lower, the results would probably have been quite different.)

If you’re considering purchasing a new sampled Steinway, Rob, we ought to do some much more thorough and comprehensive tests and comparisons, it seems to me. Say the word, tell me what you’re interested in hearing and I’m on it.

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[Lawrence]

Hey Rob, Piet covered the Modern D so I’ll skip that one.

Is it just Steinways you’re interested in?

[RobS]

Hey Rob, Piet covered the Modern D so I’ll skip that one.

Is it just Steinways you’re interested in?

yes of course, thank you Larry... really what I'm after is a piano library that makes me inspired when playing and could be used as a satisfying demo for pieces to be recorded. Not necessarily Steinway, but admit I have a soft spot for the Steins

[RobS]

Solely based on this microscopic test, I would, cautiously, say that the Ivory and the Premier deliver the best result here, but as a test, this is obviously nowhere near sufficient to declare them favourites and the others also-rans. In fact, I wouldn’t be able to draw any conclusions from this, if I wasn’t already familiar with all these libraries. (Also: if we’d done this excerise an octave — or any interval, for that matter — higher or lower, the results would probably have been quite different.)

If you’re considering purchasing a new sampled Steinway, Rob, we ought to do some much more thorough and comprehensive tests and comparisons, it seems to me. Say the word, tell me what you’re interested in hearing and I’m on it.

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I listened to the examples, and to my surprise the modern D is not the one I'd pick (I know you weren't advocating it, but it's so celebrated...). Of all, it seems the Premier is my favourite, at first glance. The Insanity also has a nice resonance, but it's just 4 velocity layers and has no pedal down samples. This shows the limitation of this test, as you said.
Would you consider the Premier to be a step up compared to Galaxy Vintage D, which I have and like?

[Lawrence]

Piano sustain test.mp3

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Here are a few Rob:

1. Production Voices 300 Grand
2. Galaxy Vintage D
3.Ivory II German Concert D
4. Walker 1955 Concert Grand Lite
5. Art Vista VGP 2

[RobS]

Piano sustain test.mp3


Here are a few Rob:

1. Production Voices 300 Grand
2. Galaxy Vintage D
3.Ivory II German Concert D
4. Walker 1955 Concert Grand Lite
5. Art Vista VGP 2

thank you! I have three of these, the Vintage D, Walker and Art Vista, and they are also the best sounding of the bunch for me. Production Voices it too bright, Ivory is better but still on the bright side. It also depends on the velocity you used of course...

[Lawrence]

Piano sustain test.mp3


Here are a few Rob:

1. Production Voices 300 Grand
2. Galaxy Vintage D
3.Ivory II German Concert D
4. Walker 1955 Concert Grand Lite
5. Art Vista VGP 2

thank you! I have three of these, the Vintage D, Walker and Art Vista, and they are also the best sounding of the bunch for me. Production Voices it too bright, Ivory is better but still on the bright side. It also depends on the velocity you used of course...

I was thinking that as well. I could make them all the same velocity if it helps, but I imagine that even at the same velocity they all sound somewhat different....

[Lawrence]

Btw, here are two more-The Piano in Blue version 2 (which I'm sure you have) and the Production Voices Studio Grand LE. It's the second one I found surprising-note the sustain.

Piano sustain test 2.mp3

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[Piet De Ridder]

(...) Would you consider the Premier to be a step up compared to Galaxy Vintage D, which I have and like? (...)

Despite a few things that bother me a bit — I can expand on this if you’re interested —, I quite like the Premier Steinway, yes. It’s not among the virtual pianos I use most often, but for certain things it is a great choice. If I were forced to delete either the Vintage D or the Premier from my system though,, I’m pretty sure I would keep the VintageD (though that one has its share problems as well of course).

These videos should help getting some idea of what the Premier Sterinway is capable of:





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[RobS]

Thanks a lot! I like it, it has more grit than the vintage D but it's also less elegant, so to speak. In jazz this might have the edge... I'm not in a hurry, I can take my time and think about it some more. Thank you and Larry for helping me

[Piet De Ridder]

Rob, here’s an example that illustrates one of the things — its most distracting flaw in fact, as far as I’m concerned — in the Premier which bothers me a bit, and that is its somewhat ‘gated’ or ‘chopped’ sound when playing staccato. Some people must like their pianos to sound like that because the Premier Kawai has it too, as did the original Keyscape C7 (in this case, an option to adjust it was, thankfully, added to one of the updates) and it’s also a very pronounced characteristic of the brand new Music Row piano. But it’s a sound I don’t like.

In the case of the Premier, it also gives the instrument a different character than the one it has when playing non-staccato, I find. It’s most noticeable in the lower mid and low range of the instrument (which is precisely the range where a real instrument tends to ring a bit and its notes have audible releases/tails, so if these are absent, as they are in this Premier, it doesn't sound right to my ears.)

Apart from that though — and the fact that it doesn’t quite bloom or resonate enough to my liking at the highest dynamics —, it’s a really fine library. Particulary nice when played gently which produces a very sweet and tender timbre (without sounding felty or artificially darkened). That’s one side of the Premier I really like.

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[RobS]

I noticed that effect in the videos, when fforte chords are played. The dynamic is impressive but the release of the samples is completely absent. If the patch is open maybe it’s something that can be improved working on release samples or release time of sustain samples .

[Piet De Ridder]

Yes, that's the first place I looked but in the two Premier Soundfactory piano libraries — the Kawai and this Steinway —, the values of the envelope appear to be controlled by scripts, so any edit you do is almost immediately undone again by the script.

It did work with the Music Row piano though: after my first 15 minutes with it, I felt the attacks needed a little softening and the releases could do with a bit of lenghtening, and both those edits were fairly easy to do and now remain as I've set them. (That being said, the Music Row has a few other issues — to my ears anyway — and is not a library I would heartily recommend, except if you really need or want that type of piano sound and character. Which, luckily, I do on occasion.)

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[RobS]

one could try deleting the envelope assigned to groups and insert a new one, maybe that would bypass the script...

[Piet De Ridder]

Ah, hadn't thought of that. That might work. I'll give it a try.
Thanks, Rob!

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[Piet De Ridder]

Doesn't work. Or at least, I can't get it to work. Don't know why. Replacing or adding a new envelope (some groups don't have one) to the relevant groups, I can edit their attack, but for some reason, changing the release parameter has no effect at all. I'm convinced it's possible but I fear it requires a good knowledge of the Kontakt's scripting language, and I have none.

(It's very easy to make the necessary edits in the predecessor of this piano, the original Piano Premier, but the current version ("At First Light") is an entirely different and far more complex affair under the hood.)

Ah, well. We've tried.
Thanks again, Rob!

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[RobS]

too bad... the original premier piano is as good as the new, and is it still sold?

[Piet De Ridder]

'No' to both questions, Rob. The original isn't bad — as far as I can tell, it's the same instrument as the new one and recorded in very similar fashion — but the new one is several steps up in most every way (except, in my view, those note-releases). Oddly enough, the product page of the original one, including its demos, is still online, but the purchase button says 'out of order'.

In 2017, disaster struck at Premier Soundfactory when they suffered a cyber attack and lost a lot of their data as a result, which forced them to rebuild — and in many cases resample and rebuild — nearly all of their libraries. The 'At First Light' piano is one of those libraries that were completely redone from scratch, if I recall correctly.

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[RobS]

Didn't know that, I'm sorry for them. Not a completely negative turn of events if the re-sampled instruments are better than the old ones. Anyway I'm close to pressing the buy button, your remark on how sweet the piano sounds at low velocities has landed in my heart, I had already noted the beautiful legato in the demo and I think it relates to that