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Musical Sampling / The Upright

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Piet De Ridder
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Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Piet De Ridder »

Image

New upright bass, The Upright, from Musical Sampling.The library uses the advanced legato techniques Musical Sampling developed for their legato guitar libraries.

The Upright includes 3 main patches: "For the Master Legato patch, we included natural legato up to a major 3rd, slide-plucks up to an octave and slide no-plucks up to a major 2nd (the latter two with slide speed CC control). Great patch for a variety of settings due to its enhanced expressive capabilities. The Performance Sustains patch is a real workhorse; comprised of samples all pulled from curated phrases — enhancing the tone, consistency and fluidity. The Body Perc includes a collection of slaps, thumps, knocks, fret slides and room tone — all of which are mapped below the playable range of the upright bass. With this setup you can arm both patches simultaneously and jam away."
There's also a bonus patch, Beefy Legato, which, they say, sounds a bit more aggressive than the main legato patch.

Price: $69 ($99 starting June 18).





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JohannesR
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by JohannesR »

Sounds really good!! Wish I used more upright bass in my music.


Luciano Storti
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Luciano Storti »

Hm, that sounds quite good. I like the tone and body. Will probably pick it up and test it on the Crooner album I'm working on.
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Lawrence
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Lawrence »

I like the slides. Tonewise, not better than the Premiere to me.


Scoredog
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Scoredog »

Lawrence wrote: May 22, 2024 2:32 pm I like the slides. Tonewise, not better than the Premiere to me.
I think in general libraries recorded pulling notes from performances suffer a bit tone wise in exchange for fluidity. Of course also sequencing with them has the drawback of the notes coming in a tiny bit late which you have to compensate for after the fact. That said the connnectiveness between notes to me is unrivaled once tweaked.

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thesteelydane
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by thesteelydane »

Damn this sounds goooooood. Waiting for Piet’s honest review because no one knows double bass better, imo…
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Guy Rowland
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Guy Rowland »

Hmm... it's a very live sound, isn't it? Perfect for some tasks but wouldn't suit others.

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Piet De Ridder
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Piet De Ridder »

thesteelydane wrote: May 22, 2024 4:25 pm(...) Waiting for Piet’s honest review (...)
If I want to talk about it, I’d have to buy it. And I wasn’t planning to. Thing is, I didn’t and still don’t hear anywhere near enough in the walkthrough or the demos to make we want to buy it. Quite the contrary in fact: not impressed by any of it. (Except Craig’s guitar playing.) Most worrying of all, I don’t hear the pluck I want and need to hear in an upright bass. Moreover, watching the walkthrough, I have several other doubts and reservations as well, not so much about the sound or tone of the instrument (which seems nice enough, though not exceptional), but about the editability, the range of the instrument (frustratingly small, from the looks of it), the dynamic range of the bass (very important, I find), its double-stop abilities, and the performance customizability of the patches.

But … incorrigible upright bass addict that I am, and also having sympathy for what Aaron is doing with Musical Sampling, I bought it anyway. (Did so between the first and the second paragraph of this post.) I’ll spend some time with it today and share my thoughts (and, very likely, some audio examples as well) later today or tomorrow. Strictly based on that walkthrough and the demos however, I already have a feeling it won’t be a glowing review.

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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Guy Rowland »

Piet De Ridder wrote: May 23, 2024 2:37 amI bought it anyway. (Did so between the first and the second paragraph of this post.)
You are absolutely one of my favourite human beings, Piet.

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Geoff Grace
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Geoff Grace »

The thing I like most about Aaron's releases is that they're almost always easy to play musically. Even if some of them may get replaced later on with other libraries, it's usually easy to get fast, satisfactory results while the ideas are flowing. For that reason, I'm interested in this release as well. Nonetheless, I very much look forward to reading your review, Piet.

Best,

Geoff

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Piet De Ridder
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Piet De Ridder »

This morning, right after I purchased The Upright, I was already thinking about this review and I thought: well, I’ll start with the bad and end with one or two paragraphs of positives. Find a nice balance between the two and finish on a complimentary note, you know. Alas, 8 hours later and I honestly do not know with what I'm going to fill those closing paragraphs. I have no idea. So, let’s just start the way I planned to start — with the puzzled look, the frowned forehead and the raised eyebrow — and maybe, when we get to it, there is something good to say towards the end as well, you never know.

Everything that bothered me when listening to the walkthrough and the demos, is alas confirmed — and often revealed as even worse than I thought — now that I have played with the library for quite a few hours. To put it in one word: it’s a plodding bass. It plods. It trudges. It drags its feet. And all because of the fact that it doesn’t have a nicely focused pluck at the start of its notes. (Check the audio examples below, and you’ll quickly hear what I mean). It also sounds, to my ears, as if that pluck is made up of more than one layer — possibly to add the necessary transients that were never there to begin with — but I don't know if that is true. Whatever was done and despite what I assume to be the developer’s best efforts, it doesn’t really work. At the moment of ‘pluck’, things often sound disjointed and sloppy, especially in the upper range of the instrument. (Whatever there is of upper range anyway. More on that in a second.) At its worst, when playing shorter notes, it sometimes even sounds like some sort of slap-back echo: you hear a transient noise and then, almost simultaneously but not quite, some tail of the body of the note, like a kind of strange short delay. Most unconvincing.

Like I mentioned earlier: the range of the instrument is deficient to the tune of almost one octave. I have quite a few other virtual basses and they all have almost an additional upper octave. Which is not nothing. And things aren’t helped by the fact that, to my ears, the highest notes of The Upright aren’t its best feature (for reasons explained in the previous paragraph).

The absence of a convincing, focused pluck also has several other, rather serious consequences: for starters, it makes the instrument much more difficult and unsatisfying to play than it should be. Geoff mentioned in the post above that one of the many appealing qualities of Musical Sampling libraries is that they are very playable, and I agree, but this Upright, I’ve got to say, is a disappointing exception to that tradition. It doesn't play at all well, I'm finding. Because of that weak, strange pluck, it always feels as if there's quite a bit of latency. And not only does it play awkwardly, but it also complicates programming this bass because in any performance where a tight rhythm is of the essence, you have to nudge the midi-notes backwards in order for their perceived moment of transient to align more or less with the beat. How much nudging is required, depends entirely on the tempo of the piece. And, making matters worse, it’s not the same amount for every note. (There is a bit of medium swing with drums in audio example 2 below: listen to the difference between the Premier’s performance and that of The Upright: the former locks effortlessly with the drums, generating a nice forward-moving pulse, the latter (even after adjusting what were at first the exact same midi-data) is much more all over the place, sometimes I managed to get it on the beat, sometimes near it and at other times somewhere in the neighbourhood of where it should be. Hence that plodding, sloppy feeling. Also check the closing fragment of example 3 where it's just Rhodes and bass: both parts are played live (without a guiding metronome), and still the Premier locks quite nicely with the Rhodes while The Upright fails completely at shaking hands with the electric piano.

Another consequence of not having a focused pluck, is that this bass tends to be a diffused, blurred presence in the mix. It’s not its sound that causes it, but rather its weak, uneven transients that make it a somewhat smeary presence in a full mix. In certain types of music, this won’t be a problem, but in any situation that requires a clearly delineated bass, The Upright, I fear, is bound to be a severe problem.

A minor thing: the strings sound a bit dead to me. Or if not ex-parrot-like dead, then certainly quite old. They don’t sing and they fade out rather quickly. Typical of old strings. I can’t imagine that an instrument with overaged strings was used for the sampling session, but that’s what it sounds like to me anyway. (The difference with the sustain of the Premier’s strings is also illustrated somewhere in the audio examples below.)

Double-stops is another thing where The Upright is absolutely no match for the Premier. (Again: compared below.) The Premier produces a really nice double-stop sound (at every dynamic level), the Upright’s double-stops don’t sound right at all to me (again largely because of its strange pluck implementation and its weak, almost muted sustains). I do want to add though that of the many sampled uprights I have, only the Premier does pleasing double-stops. No other library, except maybe the Fluffy, even begins to come close.

There’s a few other little things that bother me a bit but I’ve said enough already. I want to add, as a final comment, that I think that Musical Sampling’s insistence on delivering their libraries without any options for adjusting certain tonal or performance-related characteristics, doesn’t do this particular library any favours. I know, it’s the Musical Sampling concept, and it works quite well in many of their previous libraries, but I don’t think it was a good idea for this bass. Sure, you can open the Kontakt editor and start fiddling there, but important things seem to be fixed (or embedded in the samples) and thus unavailable for adjustment.

And this is where I’m supposed to switch to the positives. But I still don’t know what to say. And there must be something good to say, because pretty much all of the previous posters in this thread heard something great in the walkthrough and/or the demos and on VI-C the reception is positive as well, so what is it? What is it that I don’t hear? See, the best I can do is saying that the sound is good. But even that I say without much conviction, because I don’t think the sound is great. Merely good. (And a fraction too roomy as well for my taste.)

Or did I focus too much on something that this library wasn’t designed to deliver: a virtual all-round upright? (After all, the instrument is described as “a plucked LEGATO upright”.) Should I have ignored the pluck problems and the short note problems and have concentrated exclusively on the instrument’s legato capabilities? Well, let’s go there for a final second and then I have to say this: I find the legato to be of very, very limited use and appeal when the moment arrives to use this bass in a piece of music. In my opinion, before legato, there are at least a dozen or so far more important things which make or break a virtual bass. If those aren’t in place or not done right, in favour of an, in this case, rather obnoxious legato implementation, there isn’t much that the instrument is good for, I believe. Sure, it impresses during a walkthrough, but when the time comes to place a performance with this instrument in an arrangement and a mix, this particular type of legato is often more a hindrance than a welcome feature, I find. It obviously can add something nice to performances at slow or medium tempi (if used sparingly), but for anything faster or anything requiring rhythmic precision (also at slower tempi), it gets seriously in the way, in my experience. (There’s an example of this too: the second half of clip 4.) And it certainly doesn’t make up for the instrument’s lack of definition (which was sacrificed, it seems to me, to make the legato possible). And how many times during a performance does one want to hear those slides? I already had more than my fill of them halfway through the walkthrough.

So, not much in the way of positives, I’m afraid. If I want to end on a postive note, it’ll have to be by praising Music Sampling for what they have done so far — I have a few of their libraries and enjoy them greatly — but, alas, not for The Upright. Or maybe this: I do think a quite a good library can be made with these samples, but it has to be rebuilt from the ground up and the legato feature shouldn’t be the prime concern, not even the second or the third, at any time.

- - - -

Audio examples

The first three are comparisons between the Premier and The Upright. They all follow the same routine: first, the Premier plays a little something, followed by The Upright playing the exact same thing. I say ‘the exact same thing’ but in many case, I had to adjust the midi for The Upright to find its best samples for any given fragment. And also, as mentioned earlier, to try and align it with the beat whenever a beat is present.

I tried to do all this without any processing but since The Upright has a much more roomy sound than the Premier, I decided to send the latter through a small chamber reverb to get it spatially closer to the former. Other than that there’s a limiter on the Stereo Out and a bit of roll-off in the lows and low mids which, to my ears, benefits both libraries. No compression or any other processing anywhere (except on the Rhodes which has some delay and plate reverb.)

Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

The last example is perhaps a bit unfair in that exposes The Upright in the Unmusical Nude: first, you get all notes from top to bottom in four different velocities (played with the Performance Sustain patch) and then there's a bit that shows how problematic (and intrusive) the legato can become at faster speeds. The latter half was played with the Main Legato patch.

Example 4

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Scoredog
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Scoredog »

Thanks for doing all this Piet, I don't mind the MS bass tone but of course there is more room in it which an AC Bass does not need and probably made it tougher to program the legatos. Example 2 is not quite fair as all the notes need to be earlier in the MS Bass's part to create a decent performance though it shows off the amount of latency (I mentioned this as an issue in my post). I had the feeling the double stops would not fair as well due to the way the Upright is sampled which it does not (again on your example the notes need to deal with the latency on the rhythm section track which of course is more work but it puts the bass in the proper light). Lastly "The Upright" can do slides at varying tempos both up and down to targeted notes which is a nice trick.


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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Guy Rowland »

Interesting Piet. The thing I hear most clearly from the examples is in how laggy it feels, that must be irritating to work with. And the Premier feels more present for sure. But The Upright doesn't seem terrible to me, it's not entirely devoid of character.

I'm most confused by the legato though - unless I missed it, I don't hear any slides at all in your examples, which is surely the big selling point? The very fast stuff in Example 4... I'm not that surprised it sounds weird, legato patches often do on very fast playing and there seems no reason to use it at all on that material (unless I'm missing something).

I'd be interested to hear the difference in the slidey legatos to see if this is where The Upright shines, but I'm honestly not really in the market for this so don't go out of your way.


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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Scoredog »

Guy, I mentioned this in my earlier post but might have been editing it as you were posting.


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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Lawrence »

Scoredog wrote: May 22, 2024 4:11 pm
Lawrence wrote: May 22, 2024 2:32 pm I like the slides. Tonewise, not better than the Premiere to me.
I think in general libraries recorded pulling notes from performances suffer a bit tone wise in exchange for fluidity. Of course also sequencing with them has the drawback of the notes coming in a tiny bit late which you have to compensate for after the fact. That said the connnectiveness between notes to me is unrivaled once tweaked.
I’ll stick with my assessment, however as Piet said, nice guitar playing, pal! I had only listened to the walkthrough, have since heard your demo. 👍

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Piet De Ridder
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Piet De Ridder »

Sorry if I haven’t given the slides their due appreciation. But I happen to quickly tire of them. I did explore them at some length and, yes, they work nicely — and there’s nothing like it in the Premier — but a performance with too many slides in it, reeks of a bad player, I always find. Good bass players don’t slide from one note to the next, they hit their targets. On time. With skill, confidence and concentration. The slide is only very rarely used. Unless you’re doing a cover of “Walk On The Wild Side”. (But with The Upright, even that won’t quite work — I’ve tried it — because Herbie Fowers’ slides are less present than The Upright’s — this is one of those things I wish there was an adjustable parameter for on the GUI — and Flowers’ slides also depart from the starting note, whereas the Upright’s lead more into the target note. It’s a subtle difference, but it is a difference.

But yeah, if the part requires slides, The Upright instantly climbs high up the list of libraries that deserve consideration for the job.

- - -

It’s getting rather late here, so I’m not going to make and post any more audio today. I’ll do an example with slides tomorrow.

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Luciano Storti
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Luciano Storti »

Piet De Ridder wrote: May 23, 2024 3:38 pm Like I mentioned earlier: the range of the instrument is deficient to the tune of almost one octave. I have quite a few other virtual basses and they all have almost an additional upper octave. Which is not nothing. And things aren’t helped by the fact that, to my ears, the highest notes of The Upright aren’t its best feature (for reasons explained in the previous paragraph).
That seems like a serious omission and odd decision. Bit of a handbrake.
Piet De Ridder wrote: May 23, 2024 3:38 pm And not only does it play awkwardly, but it also complicates programming this bass because in any performance where a tight rhythm is of the essence, you have to nudge the midi-notes backwards in order for their perceived moment of transient to align more or less with the beat. How much nudging is required, depends entirely on the tempo of the piece. And, making matters worse, it’s not the same amount for every note. (There is a bit of medium swing with drums in audio example 2 below: listen to the difference between the Premier’s performance and that of The Upright: the former locks effortlessly with the drums, generating a nice forward-moving pulse, the latter (even after adjusting what were at first the exact same midi-data) is much more all over the place, sometimes I managed to get it on the beat, sometimes near it and at other times somewhere in the neighbourhood of where it should be. Hence that plodding, sloppy feeling. Also check the closing fragment of example 3 where it's just Rhodes and bass: both parts are played live (without a guiding metronome), and still the Premier locks quite nicely with the Rhodes while The Upright fails completely at shaking hands with the electric piano.
Yeah, the timing issue seems glaring, though of more concern would be the different delay times of the various notes, which makes me think this ought to be played entirely by feel rather than copying parts, so that one can anticipate notes and compensate for the inherent delay? Or is this wishful thinking?
Piet De Ridder wrote: May 23, 2024 3:38 pm A minor thing: the strings sound a bit dead to me. Or if not ex-parrot-like dead, then certainly quite old. They don’t sing and they fade out rather quickly. Typical of old strings. I can’t imagine that an instrument with overaged strings was used for the sampling session, but that’s what it sounds like to me anyway. (The difference with the sustain of the Premier’s strings is also illustrated somewhere in the audio examples below.)
This bit was rather surprising to me: in the demo/walkthrough I liked the body of the instrument, but comparing directly to the Premier, the Upright seems lacking. Less sustain, less pluck like you said, and interesting observation about the age of the strings. I preferred the Premier in every example you posted, both for tone and transient presence, but in Ex.2, I quite liked the MS Upright with its slightly subdued tone. It fit rather nicely, though clearly locking in rhythmically left something to be desired.

Do you think one could coax something more "present" from the Upright with judicious use of compression/envelope manipulation, say via a transient processor?

Thanks for buying it, spending serious time with it and posting your thoughts, Piet. It's immensely appreciated! Also, I think perhaps it might be worth contacting Aaron and letting him know your thoughts: you bring up some excellent points, including the ability to edit the instrument, which would at least allow us to alter certain aspects. Not that I'm trying to create more work for you!
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Lawrence »

So I guess the way I’ve dealt with the Premier is that it has various pre-baked slides that I’m able to use with reasonable effect.

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Piet De Ridder
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Piet De Ridder »

I don’t know about my example 2 being all that unfair, Craig. I actually think it’s among the fairest in the land in that it gives the reader/listener an honest and accurate idea of the problems that need to be overcome when working with this library. I *did* nudge the notes of The Upright backwards in that example (the bit with the jazz drums) with the result that some of them fell more or less into place while others obviously still needed further careful tweaking. I could have done that, I suppose, but it would have taken another 15 to 20 minutes to get every single note just right. And this is only eight simple bars we’re talking about here. (Adjust a note, play back, not quite there yet, adjust some more, play back again, still not completely right, edit again, play back again, OK, next note … and so on and so on.) Imagine having to do that for an entire song or track.

Anyway.

I did a little something featuring slides, but before continuing I want to say, and say again, that I distantiate myself completely from the results. I’m having a very difficult time ‘speaking music’ with these slides and making them part of a performance in a way that sounds right, I must say. Maybe it requires quite a few days of practice with this patch to gain full control over it, but at this moment, I have to declare myself totally unable to do anything with it that sounds acceptable, never mind good.

While knowing when a slide will ‘land’ is something I can see myself learning pretty soon, it is extremely difficult to incorporate them in live playing. Especially in a piece with a fixed tempo: I tried that a few times, my first idea was to do a bass solo on Paul Simon’s “Slip Sliding Away”, but had to give up on it because every take was without even the slightest promise of success.

Every bit as big a problem, bigger even, are the dynamics. The slides are triggered by legato transitions where the target note has a velocity below 54. This means that you can’t play non-sliding legato at anything other than mezzo forte or above. Quite a frustrating and highly unmusical limitation, I find. Moreover, the slides themselves seem to have only one dynamic and it’s a rather strong one. A gentle slide ending in a soft, delicate pluck is impossible. (Check all the brusque, tasteless slides in the example below. And pay particular attention to the dynamic of the target notes: 9 times out of 10, it’s way too strong. The final notes are particularly telling in this regard.)
And again: you can’t edit any of this. I can’t configure the patch so that slides are only triggered when the incoming velocities dip below value 10 (which would make it *much* more playable for me). Nor can I instruct the software to reduce the dynamic of the target note or any other characteristic of the slides. Maybe someone with a good knowledge of Kontakt-scripting knows how to do it, but I don’t.

In the example below, played with the Main Legato patch, there are way too many slides, I know. But I kept them in for illustrative purposes. Also note that the non-sliding legato doesn’t even begin to answer to the description “smooth and with finesse”. To my ears, the whole thing sounds disjointed, broken up, clumsily played, with dynamics that don’t fit the phrases at all and rather abrasive, scratchy pluck noises all over the place.

Example 5 (Slides)

- - -

Luke,

I EQ’ed the bass a bit in the above example in the hope of making it a bit more present, but I don’t think I succeeded. And there’s no getting rid of the room of course. (In this respect, this library reminds me of the Spitfire Studio Series.) Best approach, I think, is to accept what’s there and work with it as is. Apart from all my misgivings mentioned above and in my previous posts, the bass does actually sit in a space that is a logical, natural choice for a project that includes this instrument. Perfect space for, say, a small jazz group or a folk/country type thing or something indie-ish.

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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Guy Rowland »

After the gloomy build up, I thought it sounded pretty good actually. As an example, there's a non-sliding drop at around 31s that does sound natural. But of course I take your misgivings, I can see exactly how frustrating it would be to work with and craft a good performance with all the dynamic and timing limitations.

This seems like one of those play-to-its-strength libraries that will forever frustrate you Piet, as you are a man about detail, precision and - most of all - specific intent. Listened to cold, it doesn't sound perfect but a lot sounds better than your descriptions. It's just not how you want it to be.

The room is the first thing that leapt out when I heard the library. You're stuck with it, and just as you say its perfect for many uses. But certainly not all.


Scoredog
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Scoredog »

Thanks again Piet for doing the heavy lifting. You are probably way more detail conscious than I am, probably why I always enjoy listening to your music.

I am often "that sounds good enough let's move on". I figure if it is good enough for me it probably will be for "most" people unless I am doing a an album, then I become OCD as I have to live with it.

For Luciano...
For my demo, not a bass work of art I probably (can't always remember my process) played slightly ahead to deal with the lag, often quantized if that didn't work well and then pushed that area forward to deal with the lag, then tweaked a few notes if they were really out of time. Track took maybe 15 minutes to do except the solo where I had to deal with the slides so that was add on time.


Luciano Storti
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Re: Musical Sampling / The Upright

Post by Luciano Storti »

Thanks Piet, for the additional example illustrating the slides. Certainly here what you are saying; some of those landing notes should be softer. But as usual, with your musicality you manage to make the passage sound quite good enough despite the limitations and my brain is still fooled into "this is good enough that I can't tell the difference." Which tells me I should be listening to some more Upright bass playing, preferably exposed. Suggestions welcome!

Thanks, Craig. So many instruments I own now function exactly as you describe and it's remarkable how well we can adapt to the rhythmic anticipation. I do want to avoid as much post-performance tweaking as possible, of course. But MS instruments are, at least the ones I've purchased so far, very easy to make sound good and musical.
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