Spitfire APEX sale / 50% off

[Ashermusic]

So I started buying libraries that recorded ensembles of players, not just 1st Vln, but 1st Vln with flutes or oboes or kazoos. Cinesamples "Orch" was the library that convinced me that I would need sections, and section combinations.

The same thing applies to dry vs recording the room. One of the things I like most about Cinesamples, Orchestral Tools, Project Sam, and even Spitfire is the rooms are there, and they all sound different. I don't think I can pick a favorite, I like them all. I also like VSL, which is kind of the antithesis.

Call it what you will, bloom, natural decay, detail - all qualities that make a performance "real". If a library captures even a hint it can be a real advantage.

"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture" - FZ

I have reached totally the opposite conclusion. Pre- cooked wet combinations just leads to people creating music that sounds pretty much the same. Nice, yes, but with little individuality. And for me, it feels less like composing and more like parts assembly.

But I don’t think my views have to be everybody’s so nobody who likes using them should red my comments as criticism.

[wst3]

that is pretty interesting! I would have expected, given your experience, that you'd like the "pre-cooked" combinations. Granted, working with them can be a challenge, but I like the result. And no one need share my opinion either!!

[RobS]

I'm more on Jay's side on this... having to do with complete scores it's practically impossible to have pre-made combinations that fit the score. I need each instrument in the orchestra to be available ... and the situation doesn't change if it's my own compositions, I want to build the ensembles the way I like, I also find the act of composing a very private one, and have a hard time accepting the interference of someone that has prepared things for me. Well this is a bit overstated I admit

[Luciano Storti]

...I also find the act of composing a very private one, and have a hard time accepting the interference of someone that has prepared things for me. Well this is a bit overstated I admit

Actually, I definitely identify with this as well, Rob. It's a very personal, intimate process and somehow feels a little less "yours" when using pre-orchestrated solutions. But I do also admit that it's a sentiment that might be going a bit too far. In my own music, I find using pre-orchestrated ensembles challenging, but I make some exceptions: one in particular is for Celli and Bassi playing octaves, and since the patch uses an orchestration that is both very common and what I would have used anyway, it works for me regularly.

[Linos]

Thank you for your kind words Jay!

Regarding pre-orchestrated samples I am in the same camp as most here, apparently. I sketch with paper and pencil, then orchestrate in Sibelius, and create the mockup as the final step from the score. Working like this, pre-orchestrated libraries or phrase libraries don't come into play at all. When working in the daw directly I see that they can be useful. But I simply am not accustomed to using them, and prefer to orchestrate myself.

Bill, I never even thought about the difference in sound when recording an ensemble together compared to individual instruments/sections. It's an interesting thought. I don't even use the a2 and a3 patches that come with woodwinds libraries. I prefer to use individual instruments because I write individidual lines most of the time anyway. I should compare how to individual instruments stacked sound compared to the a due patch.

[wst3]

Bill, I never even thought about the difference in sound when recording an ensemble together compared to individual instruments/sections. It's an interesting thought. I don't even use the a2 and a3 patches that come with woodwinds libraries. I prefer to use individual instruments because I write individidual lines most of the time anyway. I should compare how to individual instruments stacked sound compared to the a due patch.

This is the outcome of a misspent youth!

I do not want to suggest that this difference is at all important it matters to me in much the same way I prefer to use a guitar, some stomp boxes, an amplifier and loudspeaker cabinet, and one or two microphones to record guitar. Is it necessary? Even I concede it is not. Does it make ME happy? Yes. If I am happy do I play better? I think so, but then what do I know?

In the beginning or my music production phase I worked exclusively with individual instruments. In fact I thought Garritan's approach with GPO was awesome - made for me even. But even back then I knew that these voices were not blending together like they would, which led to a long, stormy relationship with reverb plugins and ensemble style libraries.

Some may remember that I was bitterly disappointed with the original Albion. OK, maybe I just wasn't a Spitfire kind of guy (sorry "cousin" Paul and Christian). So I tried Project Sam Orchestral Essentials. A little better, but not something I'd want to work with regularly. It was just easier to work with individual instruments and/or sections. Then I tried Cinesamples CineOrch - a very limited library of an orchestra recorded in situ. WOW!

On a lark I tried Swing!. That was the one that helped me get over the hump. I went back and tried working with Albion again, and this time it went better. I ended up with the entire Symphobia series, several Albions, and a couple of the Ark Metropolis series.

Don't get me wrong, these are seldom the choice to start a project. Like you I most often start with paper and pencil, or an acoustic guitar, or sometimes a piano. It is just easier for me to think about the music when I see it written down. I also start in Finale from time to time, and that is the approach I'd like to use, kind of the best of both worlds, especially now that I have it on a laptop (so the couch is still "home").

And wow did I wander!

The point I intended to try to make. I like the sound of an orchestra recorded in one pass, I like the sound of a rock or folk or jazz ensemble recorded in one pass (yeah, cause that happens a lot!). Live to 2-track remains one of my favorite recipes - just don't ask me to be one of the players, I get nervous enough when I'm one of the engineers.

All else being equal (which never happens) I'd work with live players in a one-pass setting. Since I can't have that I'd work with ensemble style libraries that offered the flexibility of individual instruments ( which may happen some day, but not today).

Since I still have trouble thinking in terms of the pre-mixed ensembles I usually work with individual instruments, in spite of the shortcoming perceived by me.

And you know what?????

No one notices or cares. Well, you guys maybe, but the audience doesn't care. They care about the melody, the harmony, the instrumentation, the construction, but not which library I used.

I can't tell you how liberating this is - every single time I realize it is true (yeah, work in progress here!).

In fact I went out and bought a Line6 Helix a couple years ago. At first I only used it while playing in pit bands, cause no one is there to listen to the pit orchestra (pity). And when the world didn't end I took it out to a regular gig. No one except the sound guy cared one whit, and the sound guy preferred the Helix because it lowered the stage volume, making his job a little easier.

TL;DR
I understand that it makes sense to use the tools that work best for you, and for the majority of folks that will be the individual instruments. If that lets you write and produce great music then I think that's all that matters.

[Ashermusic]

I understand that it makes sense to use the tools that work best for you, and for the majority of folks that will be the individual instruments. If that lets you write and produce great music then I think that's all that matters.

Maybe for the majority of folks here, but for the majority of folks overall they probably prefer the pre-cooked libraries. Without meaning to sound like a snob, (not that I am above that behavior), it simply takes less training in orchestration to make them sound good.

[Lawrence]

No client has ever asked me which string library I used on their piece.

[Ashermusic]

No client has ever asked me which string library I used on their piece.

Actually, I have had a bunch ask me, but they were Logic Pro clients, not composer clients.

[RobS]

...I also find the act of composing a very private one, and have a hard time accepting the interference of someone that has prepared things for me. Well this is a bit overstated I admit

Actually, I definitely identify with this as well, Rob. It's a very personal, intimate process and somehow feels a little less "yours" when using pre-orchestrated solutions. But I do also admit that it's a sentiment that might be going a bit too far. In my own music, I find using pre-orchestrated ensembles challenging, but I make some exceptions: one in particular is for Celli and Bassi playing octaves, and since the patch uses an orchestration that is both very common and what I would have used anyway, it works for me regularly.

good to know I'm not alone Luciano...
As for basses doubling cellos, in contemporary orchestral music it doesn't happen as often as it used to, so I'd rarely need such a patch, but you're right that that's one usable combination.

[Ashermusic]

I will say that in paid projects like my last one where all the music is under dialogue I will use libraries like Spitfire Symphonic Motions. But even there I will likely filter out the high strings notes from an instance’s preset that I choose, then open another instance and filter out the low strings notes from the preset I choose.

I remember years ago showing a friend how I was editing Stylus RMX patterns and he asked, “Are you sure you are making it better?”

I answered him honestly, “No, I am not but I am making them mine.”

Ego maybe, but it matters to me to feel like a composer rather than an assembly worker.

[wst3]

I remember years ago showing a friend how I was editing Stylus RMX patterns and he asked, “Are you sure you are making it better?”

I answered him honestly, “No, I am not but I am making them mine.”

Ego maybe, but it matters to me to feel like a composer rather than an assembly worker.

Not ego at all, a very healthy approach if you ask me - which you didn't.

In a similar vein, I almost never use plugin factory presets, except as learning tools - how did they do that???

And mostly it is because a long time ago using factory presets was frowned upon - they were so instantly recognizable. Then again 80 patches on an early synthesizer was a lot. Obviously that has changed with the advent of plugins, but I haven't changed with it.

Make them yours!!!

[wst3]

No client has ever asked me which string library I used on their piece.

I can't believe it

As a recovering lighting designer it frustrated me, at first, that no one was noticing my brilliant design. Eventually I realized that meant I had done my job well. When I attend a play I do notice, but unless I am completely bored I don't notice for long. In fact I have been known to return to see a show a second so I can "borrow" some ideas.

As a media composer I am perfectly happy if my music or sound effects did not distract from the message.

[wst3]

Maybe for the majority of folks here, but for the majority of folks overall they probably prefer the pre-cooked libraries. Without meaning to sound like a snob, (not that I am above that behavior), it simply takes less training in orchestration to make them sound good.

OK, maybe a tiny bit snobby, but a really interesting point.

I (finally) picked up the Bernard Herrman library from Spitfire. I don't know if I will use it in a finished track (I might, while very specialized it is very well done), but I am getting all sorts of new ideas just from playing around. I knew what some of his tricks were from reading about him or reading the occasional score (they are rare).

But for me to double a kazoo with a sousaphone using individual libraries will sound much different than the kazoo/sousaphone patch in the library. In addition to knowing that he did double kazoo with sousaphone I know know - a little more clearly - what resulted. And now when I listen to one of his soundtracks I am more aware. If that makes sense.

Not at all unlike our various conversations about processor plugins. There are album tracks that I listen to specifically for they way the engineer used compressors, equalizers, reverbs, delays, whatever. I will "study" them, and fortunately for me, there are enough trade rag articles that talk about that sort of thing that I get a head start.

Some of my favorite "training" plugins are the Waves Artist series. I have Eddie Kramer, Chris Lor Alge, and Jack Joseph Puig, and I have picked up ideas from all of them. I even tried using their presets on my tracks - didn't work!

[Lawrence]

No client has ever asked me which string library I used on their piece.

Actually, I have had a bunch ask me, but they were Logic Pro clients, not composer clients.

Yeah, my plumber was fixing a pipe while I was working and asked which woodwinds I was using.However, no carpenter has ever asked which musical saw sample…..

[lofi]

Whatever gets the client happy.
BBC SO is groundbreaking in its use of spill mics.
I hope more libraries like that will follow.

@Bill
The Ondes is really nice as are some of the "full" orchestra FX's.
I'm a sucker for vibes and harp.
Used it a lot on a show I did a few years back, all seemed happy with the result.
It's not a soli library, you need something to blend it with.
Not as large and in your face as the Symphobia series.

/Anders