Orchestral Tools: Tom Holkenborg's Percussion

[riffwraith]

I am getting some VI vibes here...

[tack]

riffwraith, please don't bait. Everyone, let's please just keep the discussion on the topic of the library.

[riffwraith]

Eh, that's not baiting. Baiting would be me making an attempt to get people to continue the sludging. I wish to see the opposite.

Cheers.

[Ashermusic]

I comment positively and negatively on products all the time, sometimes even on the developer. I hopefully am less asshole-ish these days when I do so than I used to be.

Anyway, I hear nothing special in this that would tempt me to either buy or recommend it. The fact that a celebrity helped create it means little to me.

[Lawrence]

Developers like Eric Persing and Alex Walbank are celebrities to me, and I don't mean that ironically. Eric's work has been a part of my career since the beginning, and the first time I saw him at NAMM I was already in hero worship mode. Same with Nick Phoenix back in the day.

[FriFlo]

Celebrities tend to be over-estimated by the public in general, I think. But there is definitively something like a unique talent for creating playable sounds/samples and I would of course include Alex Wallbank and Eric Persing. I would also like to add Jasper Blunk. If the last release from OT before JXL-Percussion (Talinn), which has a gorgeous tone to it, would have been kissed by his ability to create the very best legatos, it might have become one of these rare releases - "sample gold". As it is, it still is a good library, but sadly one with a lot of unusable legato transitions (especially in the strings).

The whole JXL cooperation with OT, however, seems like a mismatch to me. They always stood for natural orchestral samples without all the hype. Sure, they have copied some of the successful tricks from Spitfire and created a series like the Metropolis Ark. But while most of those were on the louder side of orchestral sound, it still was the same aesthetic as their Berlin series - no hyped stuff. And you can use these sounds very well in non-hyped orchestrations - mostly for epic orchestras of course!

Well, that is certainly the opposite of what JXL stands for. He is more the synths kind of guy, although he recently took on learning about real instruments (a bit late in life, if you ask me, to be associated with great orchestral sample libraries). He surely has capable people at his side to orchestrate brilliantly - first and foremost Conrad Pope who does his orchestrations and probably some writing as well I suppose. The "Conrad Pope Series" would certainly be a better fit for Orchestral Tools, if you ask me. But I guess I am no good at marketing! :-) (And I actually wouldn't want to be ...)

[Lawrence]

I think collaborations like this are good from a marketing perspective and can generate some serious revenues for companies, which allow them to expand their projects and increase their number. T.H. seems to have a lot of fans-good for him, good for O.T. If it had been a product that knocked me out I might have gone for it regardless of the branding. Ditto for the Zimmer branded stuff.

In terms of recent perc I think I'd be more likely to go for Damage 2 if I were in the market, assuming that the demos tell the tale.

[Guy Rowland]

I think collaborations like this are good from a marketing perspective and can generate some serious revenues for companies, which allow them to expand their projects and increase their number. T.H. seems to have a lot of fans-good for him, good for O.T. If it had been a product that knocked me out I might have gone for it regardless of the branding. Ditto for the Zimmer branded stuff.

Yeah, seems fair to me. And this is based round TH's private collection - whatever we think, these sounds have delivered the goods as part of his sound.

I guess it's not unreasonable to compare to Spitfire and HZ. Both companies started from a fairly classical perspective it seems to me, and have broadened out their appeal as they have grown. This may or may not be fair, but I don't find myself recoiling from OT's marketing though And their QC has been a lot better in my slightly limited experience.

[FriFlo]

I read Jays post earlier, where he wrote about good composers who couldn't make great samples and good library developers who couldn't compose well. Somehow, he seems to have deleted that message. But I found the thought to interesting to let it just slip. IMO that is totally the case one way around and not at all the other way around - well, kind of! A good developer must not be a very good composer, of course, but he definitively must be a great mockup artist. Otherwise, he could not know what to listen and search for during development. Maybe Jay deleted that comment, because he thought of that himself ...

Jasper Blanks great libraries are a perfect demonstration of that. With much less resources compared to what the big developers like OT and Spitfire have at hand, he managed to smash them in some quality aspects just by his musical talent and working is butt up. His mockups are just as top notch as his products are.

And you can see that same principle at Spitfire where the way those guys write as composers shows very much in the limitations of their products. Without Andy I am not sure we would have such products as the Chamber Strings (he does the legato programming, if I am not wrong).

As Larry said it: a celebrity is only a marketing tool for such a product. Rarely, one of the celebrities ever has a real impact on the product. Probably something like HZ Strings would never have been produced without that brand name - not enough people would have bought it to justify the cost. But I am not so sure we would have missed anything without it.

With JXL Percussion it is a bit different, cause those samples existed before their selling was part of the plan. I just don't care for these sounds, as I don't think they would give me anything new that I am missing. I can use addictive drums (or any similar drum library), process the hell out of it and achieve something very similar. Counting the RRs, the dynamic range of some of these drums is also very similar (or even better) compared to that of JXL and the Tupan is just a sound drum in this library which is not really a Tupan anymore, as we learned in the beginning of this thread. That is why it is actually not important if it is any other frame drum. 8dio also has some good alternatives to that which you can pick up at a really low price during sale.

[Ashermusic]

I read Jays post earlier, where he wrote about good composers who couldn't make great samples and good library developers who couldn't compose well. Somehow, he seems to have deleted that message. But I found the thought to interesting to let it just slip. IMO that is totally the case one way around and not at all the other way around - well, kind of! A good developer must not be a very good composer, of course, but he definitively must be a great mockup artist. Otherwise, he could not know what to listen and search for during development. Maybe Jay deleted that comment, because he thought of that himself.

I deleted it because when I re-read it I thought I made obvious points that everyone already knows, so it added little to the discussion.

[Guy Rowland]

There's a whole lotta self deletion going on these days!

Just a suggestion that if people do delete posts they just edit and replace the original with a little note and explanation?

[Ashermusic]

There's a whole lotta self deletion going on these days!

Just a suggestion that if people do delete posts they just edit and replace the original with a little note and explanation?

Will do.

[wst3]

I like Tom's film work, and while I never really gave it any thought, the percussion works well.

And yet I am somewhat underwhelmed with JXL Percussion, at least based on the walk through.

However, I think I sometimes limit myself by ignoring what I consider to be marketing tricks. Sometimes, not always.

Earlier this spring I received an offer I couldn't refuse... a deep discount on the HZ Percussion library. I had never even considered it largely because I thought it was nothing more than a marketing trick.

Percussion is the one thing for which I am a complete sucker. I have way too much. I could probably be perfectly fine with Toontrack Orchestral Percussion, their Decades library, and a couple "found" sound type libraries. But much to my surprise I do use all of them.

Anyway that is the reason I finally caved and gave the demos a listen. And I really liked what I heard. So I took the leap of faith and I am glad, because I can see myself using these. Do the initials HZ make a difference? Not really. There is a little bit of a grin when I consider that I have a library he might very well use. I mean no disrespect to either Hans or Tom, but it has never been my goal to sound exactly like either one of them (I may have made a mistake there?).

The JXL percussion library is cool, and it fits a niche, probably a sizable one at that, but at least for now it is not a good fit for me.

[Tobias Escher]

Again, remaining completely neutral on the product itself, but I can confirm that there is 0% marketing trick about THP. These are really his samples, recorded his way and programmed exactly as he likes them. This collection is 100% Tom.

This applies to the Brasss, as well. While that was indeed recorded by OT, it was completely his concept, his choice of recording technique, etc...

I'm not a big fan of most "epic" music at all, but I must say that TH Brass is my go-to brass library and I use the Full Ensemble in 100% of my projects.
As for the percussion... it is too early. But from the limited experience I have with it, it works extremely well for its niche. When I need that kind of sound, I'm sure it will be my first choice.

Basically just wanted to point out that, at least for this collection, there really is 0% marketing about the name. I can't possibly imagine a "namedrop" where the "name" is more involved than here. This is truly Tom's product.

[Lawrence]

Tobias, I'm confused by your post.

Using a celebrity name IS a marketing tool, that’s the whole point. Calling it “Bob Jones Percussion” would likely not sell more copies if no one has ever heard of Bob Jones.

It’s great that Tom was deeply involved with the products, but the fact remains that celebrity names sell units.

[Tobias Escher]

Quoting FriFlo:
"As Larry said it: a celebrity is only a marketing tool for such a product. Rarely, one of the celebrities ever has a real impact on the product. Probably something like HZ Strings would never have been produced without that brand name - not enough people would have bought it to justify the cost. But I am not so sure we would have missed anything without it."

I just wanted to stress that this does not apply at all to both TH collections. I can't imagine MORE real impact by the "name" on the product. Again, no judgement of the product itself. I totally accept that it won't be of any use to a lot of people.
We can all agree that Damage and Evolve, etc... are staples for thousands of people and are absolutely wonderful. I would not pay 1 Euro for either, simply because I do not write any music that needs them

[Ashermusic]

It’s great that Tom was deeply involved with the products, but the fact remains that celebrity names sell units.

Of course. When Apogee released Clearmountain's Domain, with his personal settings from Springsteen song settings, not going to lie, it peaked my interest.

[axb312]

To be honest, I think this library is way overpriced for what it is.

Basically, JXL's personal drum collection. Recorded closed micd and processed.

Recordings taken over seven years. Same drums with different tunings (with a few variations in sizes).

In terms of costs, I assume this would have been minimal to nil, since JXL has used these in his movie scores and should have recovered his costs there.

Whats left? Conversion to Sine and Marketing?

I donno. Seems overpriced for what it is. Or perhaps my thinking is wrong...?

[wst3]

I think maybe your thinking is missing something, not wrong. Unless you know something that we don't it is very difficult to put a number on the cost to develop this library. Nonetheless you are free to share your opinion, and it is good to hear from the opposing side.

I think it is somehow odd when people say that something is overpriced, especially in the sample library marketplace, where costs range from next to nothing all the way up to an arm and a kidney. And that's nothing more than my opinion.

I don't have the Apogee software, so I can't speak to the accuracy or value of Clearmountain's Domain. In general I find tools like this to be potentially educational, but I can't imagine using their presets on my tracks. I don't think it would work.

Several years ago I picked up a couple of Waves plugins that purported to use the gear and settings from well known engineers. I picked up the first one - Eddie Kramer - out of curiosity (and it was on sale!) I learned a lot from that plugin, I no longer use it, and should probably revisit? After that I picked up a couple others and they were also sources of ideas.

Mostly I do tend to steer away from artist branded products because I really don't want to sound like them. I could, I suppose, process the sounds so that they were less identifiable, but at the moment I'm pretty happy with my library collection.

There are, of course, exceptions.

I find Toontrack Decades to be incredibly useful in almost any style (except epic<G>). I like the simple approach to recording the kits, it is very similar to the way I recorded drums back when I recorded drums (minus the great gear collection, fantastic kits, awesome room, and of course those chambers!)

And while I have not yet made the leap, I do keep putting the Bernard Herrmann Composer Toolkit in my shopping cart every time it goes on sale. I think it would be very interesting to dig deeper into his orchestration techniques.

Anyway, I fall in the camp that does not find this library to be essential for my work, but dang, you have to tip your hat to how well Orchestral Toola and Tom Holkenborg collaborated, and the quality of the result. It is a great sounding library, even if the sound itself does not catch your fancy.

[Ashermusic]

.

I don't have the Apogee software, so I can't speak to the accuracy or value of Clearmountain's Domain. In general I find tools like this to be potentially educational, but I can't imagine using their presets on my tracks. I don't think it would work.

And yet, I sent you one of my song demos that you really liked in which I did exactly that:)

[wst3]

I did say "me" or "I", I hope.

I am not suggesting that others can't make good use of artist branded tools. I've heard too many examples to the contrary.

I am suggesting that while I find them interesting from a learning perspective, I don't want to sound like them. It's probably the reason I never became rich and famous (well, among other things) but long ago a teacher or mentor suggested that one should never use presets except as a starting point. It's the same reason I record some of my own sound effects, and mangle the stuff in libraries when needed.

And now I am curious (and lazy) - which track. I really can't recall any of them that I did not really like. But it sticks in my mind that you may have even mentioned Clearmountain's Domain. For a "young" guy my memory is crap<G>!

The other thing - unless you butcher the mix, or ask specifically about it, I am unlikely to pick those aspects apart. I did at first, because you asked me to, but these days I just enjoy the craft!

Make sense?

[Ashermusic]

I don’t remember for sure but it might have been “Sick Of It” with the Clearmountain “Tougher Than The Rest” preset. ( from Bruce’s solo album “Tunnel Of Love”, a favorite of mine.)

I rarely dial in a preset and just leave it. Mostly I use them to get in the ballpark and then tweak a bit. But I am not a real engineer, just a composer-songwriter-singer-arranger who also does his own mixing because I can’t afford a real one.

[axb312]

I think maybe your thinking is missing something, not wrong. Unless you know something that we don't it is very difficult to put a number on the cost to develop this library. Nonetheless you are free to share your opinion, and it is good to hear from the opposing side.

I think it is somehow odd when people say that something is overpriced, especially in the sample library marketplace, where costs range from next to nothing all the way up to an arm and a kidney. And that's nothing more than my opinion.

I don't have the Apogee software, so I can't speak to the accuracy or value of Clearmountain's Domain. In general I find tools like this to be potentially educational, but I can't imagine using their presets on my tracks. I don't think it would work.

Several years ago I picked up a couple of Waves plugins that purported to use the gear and settings from well known engineers. I picked up the first one - Eddie Kramer - out of curiosity (and it was on sale!) I learned a lot from that plugin, I no longer use it, and should probably revisit? After that I picked up a couple others and they were also sources of ideas.

Mostly I do tend to steer away from artist branded products because I really don't want to sound like them. I could, I suppose, process the sounds so that they were less identifiable, but at the moment I'm pretty happy with my library collection.

There are, of course, exceptions.

I find Toontrack Decades to be incredibly useful in almost any style (except epic<G>). I like the simple approach to recording the kits, it is very similar to the way I recorded drums back when I recorded drums (minus the great gear collection, fantastic kits, awesome room, and of course those chambers!)

And while I have not yet made the leap, I do keep putting the Bernard Herrmann Composer Toolkit in my shopping cart every time it goes on sale. I think it would be very interesting to dig deeper into his orchestration techniques.

Anyway, I fall in the camp that does not find this library to be essential for my work, but dang, you have to tip your hat to how well Orchestral Toola and Tom Holkenborg collaborated, and the quality of the result. It is a great sounding library, even if the sound itself does not catch your fancy.

The drums in OTs offering sound and look similar to what was shown by JXL on his studio time series for Mad Max a few years ago.

Which is why I assumed they're probably the same drums.

If they are the same drums, is it not safe to assume that JXL has more than covered his costs for them already?

Lots of assumptions yes, but hopefully some of them make sense and are valid...

Anyhew, I like the sound. Not the pricing and not the inflexibility though so this ones a no for me.

[Geoff Grace]

Of course, it takes more than just recouping costs if you want to keep a roof over your head, food in your mouth, etc. I don't imagine he's hurting for money; but you never know what the future will bring.

As always, YMMV; but the intro price doesn't seem terribly high to me. That said, I'm not planning on buying this either, as I also have plenty of percussion.

Best,

Geoff

[Guy Rowland]

Yeah, I sorta see the argument that the price is high, but in terms of the marketplace overall it doesn't seem so me, especially with the intro discount. These are the actual drum recordings used in huge movies, and no amount of rationalising changes that this will mean a lot to a lot of people. It may not be the perfect product for most of us here, but it seems well conceived and executed to me for the intended audience.