Spitfire @ Abbey Road !/?

[mcalis]

Yes, very nice sound - the trumpets seem particularly good. Overall its another oddly balanced release though, with 10 mic positions but all ensembles and no legatos. That's just plain weird to me, such a bizarre set of priorities.

I think I can understand this move. This particular product is not for you, or me, or frankly anyone on this board (presumably). They're catering to two, maybe three different groups: the first group (and probably the largest group) are those people who are just getting into orchestral sampling, or maybe already have an Albion or another ensemble product. This group doesn't want or need individual sections and for them having a "full" ensemble/orchestra package recorded at Abbey Road is an interesting enough proposition.

The second group they're catering to through their Selections are people who are either looking for a very specific sound or who don't have the means to plonk down a big pile of cash for a more fully-fledged product. I wouldn't be suprised if they took a note from Performance Sample's and some indie's success here. They're realizing there is a market for mid-priced, one-trick pony products.

The third group are the pros and the meddling hobbyists/prosumers (like yours truly) who want full control and have the means to buy into a modular library.

Point being, I think it's just business that is motivating this three-pronged approach, what may seem like an odd omission to you and me might well not be missed by the group to who this product is being targeted.

--

While I am at it, there are two more points I want to touch on. First and foremost, I am very amused that their biggest announcement to date (imo, this announcement is far bigger than their collab with the BBCSO) was marketed in a very subdued (for them) fashion. Just a single video, no mention of game changers or new chapters... I am really happy for it, don't get me wrong, but there's a certain irony in the fact that their biggest announcement ever entered the stage with relatively little fanfare. I mean, just think about it... where could they go from here in terms of different venues? I really get the sense that they're trying to take everything that was learned from BML/SSO and apply it at Abbey Road.

Secondly, I am honestly hopeful that the modular part of these new products will mark a return to the BML format. It could be just marketing speak, but they're declaring that these modular bits will be more detailed than ever, which to me means that they'll be on par with or exceed the level of detail of the SSO. That's the part where I get excited, though there's a part of me that's still quite cautious of SA.

I don't think many people on VI-C are getting just how big of a deal this is (except NoamL ). SA has essentially just announced that they're going to do everything they've done at Air, but at Abbey Road. Well... okay, the approach is somewhat different, but the scope is still HUGE. We're looking at multiple years of new product releases, methinks. Somehow that message isn't landing though...

[IFM]

I don't know Mathias as someone who loves to get their ideas from using ensembles this is right up my alley. Sometimes they make the final cut, sometimes all replaced with the individual sections. Going to think about this one and might jump on it and follow it all the way through.

[Guy Rowland]

I'm not sure about selling the £49 thing either actually, if I've understood it right they talk about 1 legato patch. OK, so... is that 1 articulation for £49? There's modular, and then there's granular. I can see a case for maybe 2 products per instrument, a core (including legato) and advanced version for the fancy stuff, a bit like the old VSL model. But 1 articulation per product?!

I dunno, I'm so jaded with Spitfire now. It was only a few months ago that the BBC was their new flagship thing that was SAMPLING FEEL THE DEPTH REVOLUTION 2.0. It had 20 mic positions and turned out it was a bit of a mess. Well forget all that, forget that bloody church they've been faffing around in for a decade waiting for somewhere better to come free, now it's Abbey Road, baby!

It's just a monstrous machine of product designed to milk composers dry, every new shiny designed to make the owner feel like they get talent by digital osmosis, that whatever inadequacies they've faced with their previous efforts are cured once they get the new Wonderthing available at a reduced price pre-order. "“THERE’S A MAGIC IN THE AIR, AND IT’S THE ESSENCE OF COMPOSERS WHO’VE RECORDED HERE". Sheesh.

OK, this is am unfair grumpy, graceless post I'll admit. The demos sound lovely, Abbey Road is a wonderful cherished studio, all true. But after a decade of consistently under-delivering and over-marketing and a track record of lamentable quality control, abandoned products and lick-of-paint reduxes, to begin yet another NEW DAWN IN THE MUSICAL LANDSCAPE THAT WILL ECHO IN ETERNITY is just too much for me tonight.

EDIT - I missed your post mcalis - maybe this marketing is rmarginally subdued, but it was preceded by a three week tease and the usual SOMETHING BIG IS COMING hoopla. And just maybe this will be the series to end it all, the definitive holy grail. Maybe they will be the developers who cried wolf.

[NoamL]

Dunno, their stuff seems pretty planned out to me.

SSO used to be their top of the line - then it got repackaged and a price reduction - eventually it will get the aux mics and some upgrades but they're done with it. The Albions and all the other AIR libraries are auxiliary.

next they do BBCSO, despite the marketing this is clearly their budget library in terms of price and specs. Trying to promote their Player and get students into their ecosystem. Some cool education oriented features. The library may well be successful right now in school/university settings and we wouldn't know.

now comes Abbey Road Orchestra, they start with an Albion like product but if you read the detailed announcement it's clear this is just laying the groundwork for recording SSO 2 at Abbey Road, even more deeply sampled with all the lessons learned. This will probably be an expensive top of the line product. They may well price it so that ONLY pros can get it. Why not? It's Abbey frickin Road.

basically

ARO (SSO 2)
SSO
Albions/BBCSO
small toolkit libraries

If you can find fault with anything, find fault with their RIDICULOUS prolonged marketing campaign for BBCSO. Just like with the campaign for HZS they refused to tamp down expectations to the product's actual specs. People were all over VIC asking if HZS should be their first starter core string library and they NEVER posted saying "What are you nuts, it's 300 strings, this is an oddball experimental library." Similarly they never told people during the BBCSO campaign any kind of straight shooter statement like "BBCSO's specs are lower than SSO. This is our product for students & entry level."

[mcalis]

Guy, I can absolutely relate to those points about questionable quality assurance, preferring new products over updates and a whole other slew of problems. Trust me, no one is more surprised to find himself on the optimistic side with a new SA product than me. It may have helped that I skipped 99% of their game changers and flautando obsessions. After BML there simply weren't a whole lot of instruments that attracted me, save for the Swarms, the Hermann kit and Pendle something something (I forgot his name). I skipped all Albions, the Beebs, their Scandi phase, their HZ stuff, etc. In many cases it would seem I've dodged some serious bullets. I mention this because I frankly haven't touched anything spitfire in quite some time and I'm coming to it "fresh".

You're right. There's good reason to be skeptical given their recent history, yet I'm hopeful they'll get this right because I think they too are extremely excited to be recording at Abbey Roads. At the very least we're pretty much guaranteed to get very well recorded samples. The real hurdles are going to be their programming and their selection of articulation s.

[riffwraith]

Well, they've solved their perennial legato problem. Interesting solution!

Ha!

[IFM]

Not sure why people love to hate of SF at the other forum, I'm glad it is more tame here. I get that if you aren't into it then don't bother but so far as I delve more deeply into what SF has to offer I am finding that these are the best libraries for me all around. I can see why people love them and I'm really not going to complain about an entire new series coming out that's recorded in Studio One.

[trumpoz]

I've unfollowed Spitfire on FB and consigned most of their emails t the trash can. This library does sound lovely from the demos - if nothing else it is good to hear something more nuanced instead of the same big bombastic stuff I've been hearing in other devs.

Never got in to the whole pre-orchestrated library thing - what is the appeal?

[Lawrence]

Not sure why people love to hate of SF at the other forum, I'm glad it is more tame here. I get that if you aren't into it then don't bother but so far as I delve more deeply into what SF has to offer I am finding that these are the best libraries for me all around. I can see why people love them and I'm really not going to complain about an entire new series coming out that's recorded in Studio One.

My perception is exactly the opposite-90% fans, 10% detractors.

I don’t love to hate them at all. I think they make great sounding libraries but I think their quality control is highly questionable, and I don’t like the fact that they release so many libraries before fixing the ones they’ve already released.

Also, their marketing hype gives me gas (and not the kind they’re trying to give me.)

I own three SF libraries. If they had better QC (and more agile legato) I’d own more.

[riffwraith]

Not sure why people love to hate of SF at the other forum...

I think some people just want to counterbalance the fanboys. Of which there are many.

Plus, SFA has earned some of the uppercuts it has recvd. Tho, not to the extent as some would like to make it seem.

Cheers.

[Linos]

Great post Guy. It sums up how I feel about Spitfire products too. In my eyes, Spitfire was at their peak with their BML series. Some what, ten years ago? Since then I feel there has been little to no innovation. And their programming and quality control got worse. BBCSO offers nothing that wasn't already in BML. But it has worse legato, more inconsistencies, and generally more problems than Spitfire Chamber Strings, for example. That they haven't managed to fix bugs or release all the mics after years doesn't reflect well on their caring for released products. Now with Abbey Road, they simply start BML all over again. True it's a fantastic studio, but from a leader in the market you would expect at least some innovation after a decade. But the only thing Spitfire innovated since BML is brutally overhyping all their new releases.

[IFM]

next they do BBCSO, despite the marketing this is clearly their budget library in terms of price and specs. Trying to promote their Player and get students into their ecosystem. Some cool education oriented features. The library may well be successful right now in school/university settings and we wouldn't know.

People were all over VIC asking if HZS should be their first starter core string library and they NEVER posted saying "What are you nuts, it's 300 strings, this is an oddball experimental library." Similarly they never told people during the BBCSO campaign any kind of straight shooter statement like "BBCSO's specs are lower than SSO. This is our product for students & entry level."

Actually owning a number of more expensive libraries (well they were at the time of purchase) BBCSO is now my go-to for sound and playability. I'm glad they didn't same something like that. I understand where you think that but to call it something entry-level IMO is a misnomer.

I guess I half agree with you? Anyways, I've turned into a SF fanboy I guess...my wallet will suffer buy my ears (and fans) will not.

[Ashermusic]

Not for me, but I understand it’s appeal.

[Daryl]

Interesting that Abbey Road Studios has done a complete about turn about recording samples there. I wonder if the pandemic has helped them change their collective minds.

[Tanuj Tiku]

Interesting that Abbey Road Studios has done a complete about turn about recording samples there. I wonder if the pandemic has helped them change their collective minds.

Does this mean, you can complete your sampling project at Abbey Road

[Daryl]

Interesting that Abbey Road Studios has done a complete about turn about recording samples there. I wonder if the pandemic has helped them change their collective minds.

Does this mean, you can complete your sampling project at Abbey Road

I doubt it. They probably agreed a partnership with SF, and it is certain that they will be charging an arm and a leg to allow them to use the words "Abbey Road".

[lofi]

Paul left a somewhat lengthy reply on Vi-c regarding updates/fixes to older libraries.

Haven’t found the time to listen to this, don’t really think it’s for me.
I do understand cash flow and that it’s needed to run a company.

Best,
/Anders

[wst3]

Spent some time listening to demos now, and I have to admit, I think it sounds pretty darned nice.

So I ask myself - "self, is this a sound you would like?" and the answer is unequivocally "yes". In much the same way that I still love the Symphobias, in spite of their ensemble approach. They sound glorious, for lack of a better word.

Then I ask - "self, are you really willing to add yet another ensemble style library to the collection?"

This ain't as easy to answer!

I greatly prefer libraries that provide access to individual instruments or sections. It is just the way I think. I've never been really good at using the ensemble style libraries, although I am getting better.

I own several from both Spitfire and Project Sam. I find the Project Sam libraries somewhat easier to use, but (just to be contrary?) I think the Spitfire libraries are easier to layer with my main libraries, and layering any of these ensembles adds a bit of glue that I just can't create with reverb plugins.

The exception (since every rule needs an exception) is Cinesamples, now that I have their brass, winds, and strings I am finding that they fit together nicely (not surprising), and don't need the extra glue. I would imagine (I can't afford to test this<G>) that the same would be true for any other developer.

Yeah, I really do like the sound, and the discount is attractive, but at the moment I think I am going to stay on the sidelines and watch. That could change of course, but I'm just not ready to add another library...

[Muziksculp]

Spitfire Audio will be releasing more Pro-Orchestral libraries recorded at AR-Studio One. (i.e. Individual String Sections, Brass, Woods, Perc. ..etc.).

I guess the only downside is, we just have to wait.

This will take some time, but I'm sure we will have some great sounding AR-Studio One based libraries from SA released next year.

[retroreel]

I dunno. I get the feeling that this Foundations library may be a cut above any other 'all in one' orchestral library introduced by any developer to date. It does sound that good imo. No one has yet mentioned that it would appear Spitfire is using new 'recording techniques' for the Abbey Road series. I hope their legato recording technique goes through a much needed transition into something special. Would love this to be the first selection pack. Something like 'Achingly romantic strings legato' It does make me laugh how Spitfire get such a bashing on here. I'm by no means a fan boy, but there does seem to be a fair amount of jealousy shown towards them from certain people on this forum. YMMV.

[Ashermusic]

But someone on the other forum made a fair point I think. BBCSO was released with a lot of fanfare and is not inexpensive. But so far they have not delivered on adding muted brass, which is kind of important if you are wanting to go all in on one library’s sound. Instead, we now have yet another series done in another terrific venue.

There is an argument to be made for do less but do it more completely.

[Tanuj Tiku]

I dunno. I get the feeling that this Foundations library may be a cut above any other 'all in one' orchestral library introduced by any developer to date. It does sound that good imo. No one has yet mentioned that it would appear Spitfire is using new 'recording techniques' for the Abbey Road series. I hope their legato recording technique goes through a much needed transition into something special. Would love this to be the first selection pack. Something like 'Achingly romantic strings legato' It does make me laugh how Spitfire get such a bashing on here. I'm by no means a fan boy, but there does seem to be a fair amount of jealousy shown towards them from certain people on this forum. YMMV.

Well, sample libraries are going through major changes. There is a whole new set of technologies and ways of making virtual instruments. Some of these companies have become really large and started to resemble like mini corporations so there is bound to be some backlash. Just like with Apple etc. Of course, all of this happens in our micro world of composer/musicians on a forum.

Some of the criticism is fair and some isn't, just like with anything else. But beyond it all, there always hope that the latest and greatest products will actually be great! That is what we are always hoping for.

Many of the comments are based on real-life working situations from a customer base whose final product is 'samples'. It is not going to get replaced so I think there might be additional expectation from samples here.

For example, I fall into this category often, I have no use of 10 mic positions if the phrase does not sound somewhat realistic. Not every piece of music needs to sound like it was recorded at Air or Abbey Road. I think the inclusion of mic positions (if they are useful) is really good if it genuinely offers different perspectives.

For example, Berlin Strings has a few mic positions but they don't alter the perspectives at all. But, Berlin Brass with their ORTF mics offer something different. That is useful, the former is useful as a mixing tool but not really giving a different perspective. I cannot make it sound intimate. You shut off the tree mics and the sound is gone. In a real recording, much of this flexibility exists but not always with samples.

But then Performance Samples and Cinematic Studio Strings come along and give the big guys a run for their money. They don't have 'the sound' or the mic position but they are able to build much better sounding phrases.

And so, as a working professional in this category, I look forward to more useful phrasing and performance rather than more mic positions. Just a few useful positions are good!

The reality is that if you wanted to use all of the mic positions - your computer would burn down or you will need extremely expensive set-ups. You cannot run a template of 800 tracks with 4 mic positions (including surround), write a full orchestral suite and expect the computer to run sensibly.

So, there is an argument about how useful some of this stuff is, who can actually run it as an intended use and what is the library designed for?

[Arbee]

I must confess I'm "one of those" and won't be buying anything else from Spitfire any time soon, despite the Abbey Road intro video sounding rich, warm and truly beautiful. But, I'm not their demographic so we're all good. After decades in company boardrooms I've become very cynical about hype over substance, but hats off to them for their success (and yes, Apple gives me similar nausea )

[Lawrence]

@Tanuj

“So, there is an argument about how useful some of this stuff is, who can actually run it as an intended use and what is the library designed for?”

You might be interested by the fact that this question also applied to early EW libraries like EWQLSO. I bought it way back in the day (I believe it ran on Kompakt) and could only run some of it at a time.

Nick Phoenix was demonstrating it at NAMM, using a trailer they had done for “Superman” for their demo. It sounded huge and glorious. I asked him how they were doing it. He told me they were networking (8?) computers. I don’t know what software they were using, but EW was clearly building for a future that would come someday but certainly wasn’t within the reach of most at that point.

VEP has changed the game. I suppose you can use a lot of mic positions if you’re networking 5 of the more powerful computers via VEP (one for each section and one for synths etc) but that’s a somewhat arduous and expensive solution to the multi-mic needs of many composers.

[Tanuj Tiku]

@Tanuj

“So, there is an argument about how useful some of this stuff is, who can actually run it as an intended use and what is the library designed for?”

You might be interested by the fact that this question also applied to early EW libraries like EWQLSO. I bought it way back in the day (I believe it ran on Kompakt) and could only run some of it at a time.

Nick Phoenix was demonstrating it at NAMM, using a trailer they had done for “Superman” for their demo. It sounded huge and glorious. I asked him how they were doing it. He told me they were networking (8?) computers. I don’t know what software they were using, but EW was clearly building for a future that would come someday but certainly wasn’t within the reach of most at that point.

VEP has changed the game. I suppose you can use a lot of mic positions if you’re networking 5 of the more powerful computers via VEP (one for each section and one for synths etc) but that’s a somewhat arduous and expensive solution to the multi-mic needs of many composers.

Larry, all of that makes sense. I remember when MIR came out, it needed a dedicated computer with 24GB RAM just to run the thing.

I do understand that the top 1% who can do this, can make use of some of the extreme features. But, even John Powell is unable to do it for full orchestral work. He said it himself that he has found no solution to get the voice count required to run large orchestral templates with all surround mics being used. He has resorted to using a surround reverb.

What is more, with hundreds of tracks, it's when you hit playback with all that MIDI, it all needs to work really well and in sync. It is very complicated. Today, it's not just one library. John Powell is not writing relatively simple music. It is a proper orchestra that gets a heavy workout. This needs tremendous power and with the surround mics, I can imagine that it is nearly impossible. Routing would be another nightmare.

But, my main problems is with musical phrasing. This has nothing to do with Spitfire. I have said before that they have done some outstanding work. I want this new series to succeed and be something I can use in my workflow because it sounds amazing and I am always rooting for awesome new libraries.

My reservations are with any library that is not up to the standards many of us demand these days because some other developers are offering that. So, there is a technical argument and then there is the issue with musical phrasing. Then there is priorities!