JXL Brass - Orchestral Tools

[riffwraith]

I did wonder at 10.00 if that really is a legato patch at all, as all the on-screen articulations don't mention it. I assume its a mode in Sustain... they couldn't possibly have made this WITHOUT legato could they?

Well, they could have, but if this is the first w.thru, don't you want to put your best foot forward? You know, first impressions and all that (the first short teaser doesn't really count, IMHO).

The physics hasn't changed - recording in ambient halls can give a gorgeous sound, but will give legato problems that are very hard to solve.

I dunno - SFA seems to have done pretty well @ AIR

http://jeffreyhayat.com/temp/fl.mp3

http://jeffreyhayat.com/temp/tb.mp3

[Guy Rowland]

Riff - yes, didn't say it was UN-solveable, there are a number of libraries where it is done well (including Sable actually). But it IS hard, and there's no guarantee of success. By contrast, if you record in a short-tail hall, there's every chance of good transitions.

[NoamL]

It's a fairly easy pass for me.... BUT I hope JXLB is very successful because SINE truly looks amazing.

Things I liked from the walkthrough:

- very wide and fluent dynamic range, much improved over Berlin Brass

- apparently pretty good MIDI consistency between different section recordings.

- the section sizes specification seems well designed, and you can move naturally from solo to massive ensembles.

- SINE's workflow features are sheer magic compared to Kontakt and I suspect we haven't seen half of them yet. I already wish I could put every library I own into SINE, assuming it's stable.

Dislikes:

- Subjectively, the overall sound doesn't inspire me. Not liking the hall is purely a matter of taste - I recognize it's one of the leading recording spaces in the world.

- On the other hand, I think it's just objectively true that when you put 12 horns or 12 trombones in there, it looks and sounds cramped. There might not be anywhere in the world where you could record 6 or 12 trombones at triple-f without getting that oppressive walled-in feeling but I definitely felt it here.

- most of the microphones seem RIGHT UP in your face (and the videos of the recording sessions underline this). I liked the Mid mics and the Surround1+2 that we heard solo'd for a few seconds, but man... those other ones are way too close for me, blatty, aggressive, unpleasant, and too centered - I like my brass to sound smooth, distant and wide. I would use Surround 1 as my "tree" and 2 as my "outriggers," and maybe one of the other mics for some added definition. Even Surround 1 and 2 seem to have VERY dry releases compared to AIR. WIth the combination of mics and the video of the recording session I almost got the idea that this was designed by Junkie as a "brass orchestra." There isn't much room between the conductor and the brass for the strings to sit, is there!

- the "processed" half of the library is something I would almost never use. It's that "brass-through-OTT" sound that has been a fad in trailers for a few years. Sounds way too hyped for scoring IMO. Also almost the same sounds are available in Trailer Brass from Musical Sampling (no trumpets in that one, but it has a bigger low brass ensemble).

- Not really a "dislike" but I don't yet feel this library can do anything I struggle to accomplish with CSB.

[Luciano Storti]

Good summary there, Noam, and I agree with what you said. I’d also add that I wasn’t always convinced by the transitions I heard and felt that the reflections, upon accumulation of mic positions, were fluttering to the opposite side too prominently. I reckon this is just what happens with the acoustics, but I wish they’d planned for this, maybe by having orchestra “bodies” positioned for more absorption. As it stands now, it sounds like the stereo image shifting.

The surround mics have a lovely tone though.

[FriFlo]

While I am still not gonna get this library, I think this walkthrough shows quite some good sides:

What I like: it shows that it does seem like they managed to create a playable, yet good sounding library. Instead of lots of articulations, they focused on huge dynamic range to make crescendos etc playable instead of recording them. Some of this might be trickery, as it could be possible that they are hiding negative aspects by the programming in this walkthrough ... however, if this library really sounds as good as presented in this video, when you play it, that would be impressive. Somehow, I would be surprised, if there are really no flaws ... call me pessimistic, but that is what I have learned from recent releases.
The reasons I am not gonna get it:
1) I don’t need the 12 horns and trombones. Would they just have updated BBr with the velocity layers and other features offered here, I would have gone for it.
2) I am not gonna trust that the library will be as playable, as described before. I will only believe that when I have believable testimonies from users.
3) This might sound strange to some, but yeah ... I don’t like the JXL branding. I simply have no respect for his work and persona and it leaves me speechless that today such a person could be presented as an argument for buying a product related to composing orchestral music. Some might argue, that is of no importance for how good the library is. That is certainly right, but sometimes I am about principles and for that matter I am kind of reluctant to support that product. I admit, however, it could become difficult to hold to my ideals, in case the library really is as playable as the walkthrough suggests and sounds as good in any way you play it.

[Tanuj Tiku]

While I am still not gonna get this library, I think this walkthrough shows quite some good sides:

What I like: it shows that it does seem like they managed to create a playable, yet good sounding library. Instead of lots of articulations, they focused on huge dynamic range to make crescendos etc playable instead of recording them. Some of this might be trickery, as it could be possible that they are hiding negative aspects by the programming in this walkthrough ... however, if this library really sounds as good as presented in this video, when you play it, that would be impressive. Somehow, I would be surprised, if there are really no flaws ... call me pessimistic, but that is what I have learned from recent releases.
The reasons I am not gonna get it:
1) I don’t need the 12 horns and trombones. Would they just have updated BBr with the velocity layers and other features offered here, I would have gone for it.
2) I am not gonna trust that the library will be as playable, as described before. I will only believe that when I have believable testimonies from users.
3) This might sound strange to some, but yeah ... I don’t like the JXL branding. I simply have no respect for his work and persona and it leaves me speechless that today such a person could be presented as an argument for buying a product related to composing orchestral music. Some might argue, that is of no importance for how good the library is. That is certainly right, but sometimes I am about principles and for that matter I am kind of reluctant to support that product. I admit, however, it could become difficult to hold to my ideals, in case the library really is as playable as the walkthrough suggests and sounds as good in any way you play it.

FriFlo, library aside, I find your comments about JXL disingenuous and elitist. No disrespect but sorry.

While I don’t enjoy his music as much, I do have respect for him and his work.

I don’t understand what branding has to do with the product, in this case. I can understand, people not being convinced upon hearing of JXL’s name attached at the start but to say that you would not like to support a library because you don’t respect JXL (as you don’t like his music and him as a person) is weird to say the least.

In fact, if anything, the existence of this library would make someone holding your views to think twice.

[FriFlo]

I don’t understand what of my writing is elitist or disingenuous. If anything, I think it is disingenuous to create a climate where it is not possible anymore to say what you think is good and what is not. In the case of music, that is related to a composer who is at the same time a person, which is why it is not possible to say you hate some music without attacking a person - at least not from the perspective of some ... can you say, you hate Trumps politics without hating him? Should it therefore not be ok to say anything negative about his politics? It seems to me, your thinking is trapped there.
I have not even begun to tell you everything about why I think JXL is not a role model in the world of composing and not everything is related to his music. I also will not do it, as no one might wanna hear that, which is fine. But I sure have my reasons for it.
And elitist? Are you serious? I am only starting to get my first meaningful jobs in the field of TV and most of the time I get horrible offers money wise. I couldn’t live solely based on money from composing, as that money would not even cover my living costs, since I live in a very expensive city. Compare that to JXL working in Hollywood and you cannot seriously call me elitist. Calling the not-haves elitist while protecting the rich and powerful is turning everything upside down and that is IMO again disingenuous and is evidence of an ideology that is very far from what I believe.
The only meaningful way would be intellectual elitist, but in today’s world, that has no meaning any more. We live in a post-intellectual world. Look at Johnson’s landslide victory yesterday and you know what I mean. The power today lies solely in financial success, so, attacking someone for intellectual elitism seems disingenuous to me again.
Anyway, no disrespect to you, but I just said, why I won’t buy this library and not being fond of JXL is one of the reasons, although it is only the last and least important one, as you can see from my post. This does not seem problematic to me and if it is to you we just might have a difference of opinion there.
I also made clear, that I assume branding and product are separate for some. Well, it is not entirely for me. Just as much as I try not to buy anything from Nestle. But I sure know, JXL did not play the horns himself! ;-D

[Scoredog]

I worked with the library for 2 days fairly solid, earlier version of Sine, no crashes amazingly. Brass plays very well under fingers, it is a killer lib.

[tack]

I worked with the library for 2 days fairly solid, earlier version of Sine, no crashes amazingly.

That's encouraging to hear. I seem to be the only person who has Kontakt crashing multiple times a day, every day, over multiple systems over multiple version for years, with no ability to identify root cause. From what I see so far, I like what OT is doing with SINE here. I'd be even happier to see them provide a low-cost platform for third parties.

[lucor]

CSB is by far my favourite brass library, and I thought I was done with brass for a while, but I just preordered this. It seems to have all the strengths and things I love about CSB (full dynamic range, consistency all across the board, ...), while being paired with a much more powerful/tweakable sampler and, more importantly, much better sound. That's the one weakness of CSB to me, the sound and the soundstage itself isn't the greatest, while brass can't have any better venue then TELDEX imo.

@FriFlo: I really don't get why you constantly seem to hate on JXL. And I fully have to agree with Tanuj, 'elitist' is the first word that always comes to mind when I read you talk about him. Like you see him as a inferior composer, and therefore he doesn't have the right to make these tutorials or shouldn't have the success he has.
I think someone who spends so much time and effort to make FREE tutorials, which don't gain him anything aside from the personal satisfaction and most certainly cost him a lot of money to produce on top, deserves nothing but respect.
And BTW, while I also am not the biggest fan of the scores I've heard of him, his two latest demos for JXL Brass show that he's indeed a very talented and capable composer.

@Scoredog: If you find the time, can you tell us how much RAM an empty instance of SINE takes up? And if it hogs the project size as much as CAPSULE? Thanks!

[Guy Rowland]

I dunno - I can sorta understand where FriFlo is coming from in the sense that its a personal view of someone's professional abilities whose name is on the library. Stands to reason to me that if you don't like someone's work or sound, you probably won't like a library with that person at the helm, or rather it might be a distracting rather than a helpful factor.

FWIW I've never engaged with any JXL score I've heard, but he does his thing well enough and seems like a decent chap. Is that fence-sitting enough?

[FriFlo]

@FriFlo: I really don't get why you constantly seem to hate on JXL. And I fully have to agree with Tanuj, 'elitist' is the first word that always comes to mind when I read you talk about him. Like you see him as a inferior composer, and therefore he doesn't have the right to make these tutorials or shouldn't have the success he has.
I think someone who spends so much time and effort to make FREE tutorials, which don't gain him anything aside from the personal satisfaction and most certainly cost him a lot of money to produce on top, deserves nothing but respect.
And BTW, while I also am not the biggest fan of the scores I've heard of him, his two latest demos for JXL Brass show that he's indeed a very talented and capable composer.

I think I have already answered all of this except this:
Where do you get from that I constantly talk about JXL? I think I mentioned once before that I probably won’t like a JXL library and now I wrote the side note that I am reluctant to support the branding. To me it seems more like people like you and Tanuj are making it seem bigger than it is by challenging me over the topic with labels like elitist.
Further, I don’t question his right to do anything, I am just saying it is not my cup of tea. I don’t get why you have to question that, but - again - it seems in today’s climate some people feel entitled to shut others up. I am not trying to shut you up, neither will I misrepresent what you wrote. But I will say, where I totally disagree: I find it highly naive to believe anything from JXLs videos is done just out of love for people. Yet, again and again people seem to make these assumptions. You may continue believing that to be true, but please don’t attack others for disagreeing.

[Scoredog]

@Scoredog: If you find the time, can you tell us how much RAM an empty instance of SINE takes up? And if it hogs the project size as much as CAPSULE? Thanks!

The foot print on my trash can Mac is practically nothing running logic. I was surprised how little my cpu used even with a full session going as i get spikes with Kontakt all the time. One instance legato playing as fast as I can netted 1 to 2%...

[Tanuj Tiku]

I don’t understand what of my writing is elitist or disingenuous. If anything, I think it is disingenuous to create a climate where it is not possible anymore to say what you think is good and what is not. In the case of music, that is related to a composer who is at the same time a person, which is why it is not possible to say you hate some music without attacking a person - at least not from the perspective of some ... can you say, you hate Trumps politics without hating him? Should it therefore not be ok to say anything negative about his politics? It seems to me, your thinking is trapped there.
I have not even begun to tell you everything about why I think JXL is not a role model in the world of composing and not everything is related to his music. I also will not do it, as no one might wanna hear that, which is fine. But I sure have my reasons for it.
And elitist? Are you serious? I am only starting to get my first meaningful jobs in the field of TV and most of the time I get horrible offers money wise. I couldn’t live solely based on money from composing, as that money would not even cover my living costs, since I live in a very expensive city. Compare that to JXL working in Hollywood and you cannot seriously call me elitist. Calling the not-haves elitist while protecting the rich and powerful is turning everything upside down and that is IMO again disingenuous and is evidence of an ideology that is very far from what I believe.
The only meaningful way would be intellectual elitist, but in today’s world, that has no meaning any more. We live in a post-intellectual world. Look at Johnson’s landslide victory yesterday and you know what I mean. The power today lies solely in financial success, so, attacking someone for intellectual elitism seems disingenuous to me again.
Anyway, no disrespect to you, but I just said, why I won’t buy this library and not being fond of JXL is one of the reasons, although it is only the last and least important one, as you can see from my post. This does not seem problematic to me and if it is to you we just might have a difference of opinion there.
I also made clear, that I assume branding and product are separate for some. Well, it is not entirely for me. Just as much as I try not to buy anything from Nestle. But I sure know, JXL did not play the horns himself! ;-D

Fair enough. It sounded as such to me from your writing.

Absolutely, I do not want you to stop talking about JXL in any light. It is absolutely fine that you do not like his music. I just did not quite get your tone and the fact that because you do not like his music and his persona, you would not like to support companies like OT, releasing products under his name. Sounded weird to me.

Anyway, no disrespect to you. We have both expressed our views and I am sorry if you felt that I personally attacked you or had the intention of not allowing you to speak your mind.

From my point of view, you said something and I just offered my opinion on that. Sorry, if you felt otherwise.

[FriFlo]

Everything is alright, Tanuj! No bad feelings towards you at all. But you should consider someone might feel somewhat attacked, when you call his comment elitist and disingenuous ... that is just the nature of these words.
By the way, I have nothing against OT. On the contrary! Their libraries are pretty much my writing backbone for most situations (although they certainly have weak spots as well)! Again, I only said I feel somewhat reluctant to support this library specifically - similarly to HZ strings. Part of that has to do with me not liking the composer, but also because I think it is unnecessary, as branding generally is IMO. No single sample is going to sound better just because we put a label on a box. Mostly, products get more expensive for that matter, because a brand has to be paid for or an entrepreneur is paid. That is certainly up for debate and I have no problem when others feel differently about it. But it ain’t disingenuous or elitist to think that way.
But let’s forget about that and talk about the library instead. I never intended this to become anything more than a side note.

[FriFlo]

@Scoredog: If you find the time, can you tell us how much RAM an empty instance of SINE takes up? And if it hogs the project size as much as CAPSULE? Thanks!

The foot print on my trash can Mac is practically nothing running logic. I was surprised how little my cpu used even with a full session going as i get spikes with Kontakt all the time. One instance legato playing as fast as I can netted 1 to 2%...

That sounds promising, indeed! I hope the other OT libraries are gonna be available, soon!

[Scoredog]

I want to clarify one thing, if you put up a bunch of mic positions up at the same time and play while it has not fully been loaded you may get a spike but after is loaded again very little cpu usage.

[FriFlo]

@Scoredog: How is the consumption of memory with all samples purged? I am not sure wether purging still makes sense with the new concept of this player ... the way I use OT libraries now is I have all instruments loaded but all microphones disabled. When I need an instrument, I just load the mic positions I need (via automation). But even with all samples purged this way, the memory footprint is still very high compared to other Kontakt libraries. I would like to know, if that has changed in any way.

[Scoredog]

@Scoredog: How is the consumption of memory with all samples purged? I am not sure wether purging still makes sense with the new concept of this player ... the way I use OT libraries now is I have all instruments loaded but all microphones disabled. When I need an instrument, I just load the mic positions I need (via automation). But even with all samples purged this way, the memory footprint is still very high compared to other Kontakt libraries. I would like to know how if that has changed in any way.

I haven't tried, everything worked so well with low cpu I didn't consider it.

[NoamL]

A comparison of JXLB and CSB (you get to guess which is which)



They seem pretty interchangeable to me. It's good to see JXLB has a really nice wide dynamic range. Kind of makes me wish I purchased this instead of Berlin. I don't really like the trumpets too much at all. The low brass are excellent. So many options for ensembles from a single trombone to a massive deeply sampled 3-tenor 3-bass 3-cimbassi lineup, to a Titanic 12-trombones-per-note ensemble, and they all sound good. I think this might be a must buy for the Daniel James style composers. I can understand why he's raving about it and why a lot of people on VI-C are too.

[tack]

A comparison of JXLB and CSB (you get to guess which is which)

They're both pretty good, but I just slightly prefer the first one for this excerpt. It has a mellower tone and progresses to the harsher cuivre texture more gradually. (Granted, could just a performance difference.) But the higher dynamics are much more shrill in the second example, which is why I think it's JXLB.

In any case, I agree that for this particular example they're quite similar.

[Luciano Storti]

I’d peg them exact opposite, though I’m listening on an iPad. First one sounds very even at soft dynamic, crescendos very well through the layers, and has a nice overall warmth in the middle range. The second is very good, too. I’m definitely picking up CSB soon, regardless of which one it is here.

[Lawrence]

Finally got around to listening to this (I'm still in new computer hell.)

I'm two minutes in thinking "This can't do fast passages without that giveaway trademark note overlap." Then I stopped listening, because I'm unlikely to ever be railroaded into an early adopter beta test for a lower price. I'd rather wait a year for a sale, if I want it.

But anyway, as to playing fast transitions:no one else felt that way?

EDIT-Sorry, by “this”I was referring to the walkthrough posted earlier. I should have been clearer. My brain has been rotted by endless password retrievals.

[Guy Rowland]

The second one definitely goes less piercing at the end, not sure if that's a good or a bad thing? But yeah, similar tone for sure.

Just can't tell from this Larry what fast performance would be like. What do you think, Noam? A 2nd test on a short fast passage?

[tack]

I’d peg them exact opposite, though I’m listening on an iPad. First one sounds very even at soft dynamic, crescendos very well through the layers, and has a nice overall warmth in the middle range.

That's exactly why I think it's CSB.

(Maybe I was ambiguous in my earlier post. I meant that I thought the first example is CSB, which I preferred slightly due to the mellower sound and smoother transitions, and the second one is JXLB.)