Cinematic Studio Brass ... soon ....

[Jack Weaver]

It'll be interesting to see where this new lib's sound will be. It's already a tug of war to get any brass into compositions these days. Modern brass is really an undefined genre right now - except for the big horns and braaams. Maybe if CSB is good enough its own sound will help to define a new brass direction.

I did spend 20 years behind a trumpet mouthpiece and have a great appreciation of the dynamic, American brass style. Similarly to many, I was very disappointed by the trpts in Berlin Brass. So much so that I hardly ever use the rest of the library. I have a lot of the brass libraries that are out there but truly no one library really, really strikes my fancy for everything.

I prefer CSS these days but am concerned about its shortcomings. I'm not overly impressed so far with the demos from CSB but judging libraries from demos is not the best practice. I'll hold my opinions of the sound until after I've heard the walk throughs.

Let's see what this Australian Brass sound is. Alex is very talented and has a great ear. I was really hoping for a brass lib with a high level of quality control on recorded dynamics with tempo control. It doesn't sound like this is going to be that. From what Alex has said it's design and control is very similar to CSS.

Off topic but, I'm very impressed with NoamL's Thanos. Let's see if CSB needs something like that or not.

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[trumpoz]

I am really surprised by this vintage sound and the harshness.

I realise that some of this can be fixed in the production but if the library sounds like that out-of-the-box it means, it will need some work before it can be used in a current aesthetic context which makes me not so interested because its a lot more work. I am also not sure how useful it will be in today's scoring climate or general aesthetic in orchestral music, not musically but in terms of the sound. It does sound vintage.

Anyway, it seems everybody is loving it so I guess its just me.

That harshness you describe is the fact that CSB captures the brass section going balls-to-the-wall at a true ff. If you listen to the Chicago Symphony play Mahler 5 or something brass heavy you will get that brightness - this is particularly evident in the days of Bud Herseth on principal trumpet. HB, Berlin Brass, CineBrass haven't really captured that sound.

[Lawrence]

Tanuj, could you offer a few audio examples of what you consider to be archetypes of the current brass aesthetic in scoring?

[Tanuj Tiku]

I am really surprised by this vintage sound and the harshness.

I realise that some of this can be fixed in the production but if the library sounds like that out-of-the-box it means, it will need some work before it can be used in a current aesthetic context which makes me not so interested because its a lot more work. I am also not sure how useful it will be in today's scoring climate or general aesthetic in orchestral music, not musically but in terms of the sound. It does sound vintage.

Anyway, it seems everybody is loving it so I guess its just me.

That harshness you describe is the fact that CSB captures the brass section going balls-to-the-wall at a true ff. If you listen to the Chicago Symphony play Mahler 5 or something brass heavy you will get that brightness - this is particularly evident in the days of Bud Herseth on principal trumpet. HB, Berlin Brass, CineBrass haven't really captured that sound.

Firstly, I would like to say once again that this is my personal view and as we know not all of us hear the same way. So, I am certainly not trying to bash the library. I am only commenting on the apparent sound of the demos. The library will most likely have great scripting and technical programming specifications as we know CSS has turned out very well in that regard.

My understanding is that no recording is ‘true’. It is all a compromise. You just make the best compromise you can while recording. And you have a vision, an aesthetic.

I have actually listened to Mahler at the Barbican, performed by LSO and conducted by Gergiev. That live experience is very different from recorded sound. So, as such there is no true way of capturing it. There are different recording aesthetics and engineers bring their own experience. These demos sound nothing like the experience of listening to it live. What is more, the space in which musicians perform has a huge effect. A performance by the LSO sounds more up-front and crisp at the Barbican but sounds little rounded and distant at the RAH. So, let’s talk about ‘recorded sound’, not what it sounds like in A particular location, with a particular brass ensemble.

What is the true sound of a brass ensemble? I think it would be very difficult to discuss this without discussing the space in which the performance takes place. With different venues the sound changes, with the additional problem of each venue posing different challenges for the recording engineer and subsequently requiring different mics and techniques etc.

Having said all of that, I am now left with the recording aesthetic apparently chosen for this particular library and solely based on the demos - once again, specially the finale of the first track, it does not sound pleasing to my ears.

If this is how a real brass section sounds on location (presumably), I would personally change the microphones and make it sound sweet. Recording is an illusion. It is an aesthetic. It is not a scientific endeavour trying to capture the one sound to rule them all. There is no such thing.

I also do not really like the sound of the 70’s scores. IMHO, it was done much better in the 80’s and onward.

And even when discussing the 70’s and 80’s, we are talking about those aesthetics. It’s done very differently now and so who is to say what is the most accurate?

I can only say what sounds pleasing and consequently musical to my ears and what doesn’t!

I still very much look forward to the walkthroughs and may be I hear something that changes my mind.

[Tanuj Tiku]

Tanuj, could you offer a few audio examples of what you consider to be archetypes of the current brass aesthetic in scoring?

Larry, I will be back in the studio tomorrow. I will post some examples which can hopefully show what Guy has also mentioned - it doesn’t sound much like anything recorded in the last 30 years or so.

[Tanuj Tiku]

Here are some examples of how the orchestra sounds in recent scores but still showing a long enough period going back to the 80's. All recorded in different spaces, some similar.



(An homage to 80's scoring perhaps in some way and also a drier sound).

(Bad ass brass here)









All of the examples show plenty of dynamic power of the brass while always sounding pleasant and musical.

HOWEVER, it is not a completely fair comparison. This is an exaggerated exercise to an extent because we are comparing the best examples from film scores to a sample library. And this is my POV and I like the brass section to sound a certain way or at least neutral but pleasing.

Having said all of that, I have a feeling that the first example in particular has been mixed a little to harsh and with the mics mixed to taste with appropriate processing, it can be made to sound good. I am just reacting on the demos.

[Ashermusic]

Personally, I would never factor in a current aesthetic because it varies from one part of the world to another part of the world. The Philadelphia orchestra brass sounds very different from e.g. the Berlin Phil.

If you like the sound you should consider it and if you don’t, then don’t. Screw trying to pander to current aesthetics. Pander to your PERSONAL aesthetics.

[bbunker]

I mean - sure, those are big-sounding and not-too-bright brass examples there, Tanuj, but it doesn't really have anything to do with Trumpoz's point, which resonates profoundly with me. I would agree that halls sound different, and players sound different in any hall to some degree, but it misses the point a bit. If you put the Chicago brass section in the dullest, warmest hall, they'll still have the brightness and character of that Chicago sound. Is that a good thing? I don't know - but if we're in a world where that sound isn't something to celebrate, then I'm going to look at everyone like we've gone to Crazytown.

So, thought I'd look to the excerpts:

https://www.brassexcerpts.com/trumpet/m ... hony-no-5/

The third excerpt is a good example, because it's one of the real blasting moments of raw power where you don't have to leave much in the tank. And Chicago has far more of that quicksilver, laceratingly bright tone than, say New York with Bernstein.

Maybe an even better example is the Tchaik 4 there. That opening with Chicago has a ton of brassiness, brightness and aggression - and it's just two trumpets. Compare that to the LSO with Szell or LA Phil with Mehta there, and there's no comparison. Especially with the LA Phil one. What the heck are they doing?

I guess I'm just thinking that the last thing I would ever ask a brass section to be would be 'neutral but pleasing.' IDK - Viva l'difference?

[Ashermusic]

I guess I'm just thinking that the last thing I would ever ask a brass section to be would be 'neutral but pleasing.' IDK - Viva l'difference?

A big +1.

[FriFlo]

at the first example in particular has been mixed a little to harsh and with the mics mixed to taste with appropriate processing, it can be made to sound good. I am just reacting on the demos.

I think he might have used something like UAD Manley Massive Passive with setting a little to high. I made the experience myself, that fiddling around with those settings to try to make everything louder as tastefully as possibly, you can reach a certain setting you like and listening to it with fresh ears the next day. certain frequencies sound disturbing ...
Let's not fool ourselves here: No natural sound orchestral piece is mixed and mastered as loudly as these demos. Actual orchestral recordings have much quieter passages and therefor more dynamic range. I think that is deliberately so, as Alex must assume, some people will listen to those demos on their tablet speakers or some earbuds at best! :-)

[Tanuj Tiku]

I mean - sure, those are big-sounding and not-too-bright brass examples there, Tanuj, but it doesn't really have anything to do with Trumpoz's point, which resonates profoundly with me. I would agree that halls sound different, and players sound different in any hall to some degree, but it misses the point a bit. If you put the Chicago brass section in the dullest, warmest hall, they'll still have the brightness and character of that Chicago sound. Is that a good thing? I don't know - but if we're in a world where that sound isn't something to celebrate, then I'm going to look at everyone like we've gone to Crazytown.

So, thought I'd look to the excerpts:

https://www.brassexcerpts.com/trumpet/m ... hony-no-5/

The third excerpt is a good example, because it's one of the real blasting moments of raw power where you don't have to leave much in the tank. And Chicago has far more of that quicksilver, laceratingly bright tone than, say New York with Bernstein.

Maybe an even better example is the Tchaik 4 there. That opening with Chicago has a ton of brassiness, brightness and aggression - and it's just two trumpets. Compare that to the LSO with Szell or LA Phil with Mehta there, and there's no comparison. Especially with the LA Phil one. What the heck are they doing?

I guess I'm just thinking that the last thing I would ever ask a brass section to be would be 'neutral but pleasing.' IDK - Viva l'difference?

I must clarify that I was talking about 'recorded sound' - not the players or the general brassynes of the brass section. I agree with everything you are saying but I am talking about recorded sound and those aesthetics. When I said that I would want (at bare minimum scenario) a brass section to sound neutral - I meant, the recording to an extent. I did not mean that I would ask the players to 'play' or sound 'neutral'. Of course, that makes no sense.

I would argue that some of those examples have the most cutting edge brass there is. I am sorry, I cannot listen to the link you posted (not available for India).

I think, very simply what I am talking about is not the inherent greatness or lack there of, in the brass section - I love it big and bold brass as much as the next guy! But, I am talking about the recorded sound not sounding hyped up to the point that it sounds unpleasant. That is all! I am discussing the recorded sound and aesthetics that come with it.

What I am hearing in the demos so far is sounding good upto medium dynamic, the really raspy parts sound unpleasant to me and over-processed (this being my major hope - because it would mean that it was the processing that was the culprit). As FriFlo has mentioned, just check the levels on those demos! The brightness (High-Mids, not the silky top highs) takes over the over all balance of the sound. I am not hearing low brass in the demos as accurately as I have to come to understand them.

The second part of the discussion is it sounding a little vintage, possibly because of the the room it was recorded in and just the general tone. With processing (as I mentioned), it is probably possible to mitigate this to an extent. And, as always, this is just my opinion and preference. Some people may well like this slightly older sounding library! It is certainly not a bad thing. It is just different and not something I am interested in. I am interested in the great music from the 70's, not the recordings.

[Ashermusic]

Just to clarify, Tanuj, and then I promise to let it go. With sample libraries, " I am talking about the recorded sound not sounding hyped up to the point that it sounds unpleasant" is a valid way to evaluate IMHO.

"Some people may well like this slightly older sounding library! It is certainly not a bad thing. It is just different and not something I am interested in" is a valid way to evaluate IMHO.

" I am also not sure how useful it will be in today's scoring climate or general aesthetic in orchestral music" is far less so. Again, IMHO.

[Tanuj Tiku]

Jay, I appreciate your input and I also do not want to add much because I think, beyond this point it will be more of the same.

I stand by everything I have said and truly feel that way. I hope the library will turn out well for the users as well as the developer. I certainly liked what I hear from CSS and hope that this will turn out well for everyone interested, just like CSS did.

[Guy Rowland]

There might be too much over-thinking here. I listened to the demos and thought "my ears hurt".

[NoamL]

Tanuj those are some great examples, thank you.

Personally if I could get any brass sound made to order, it would be the sound of the LSO on the Star Wars prequels. Really great, powerful sound, large stereo separation between sections, a gorgeous space. But then it wouldn't be very usable if a project needed close-mic'd brass.

[NoamL]

And FriFlo you are right as well. I recorded Alex's demos to my computer to listen to them in more detail, and they seem to be mastered & limited strongly, especially the first and last ones.

I suspect that the dynamic range of this brass is MORE than enough to overwhelm the loudest that CSS can play, so there will be a balancing act when using these libraries together.

[tack]

And it's out. A couple videos up now and at least through my crappy phone speakers it sounds really good. Although I'm concerned I haven't heard anything in the ppp to pp range. I suspect this won't be the library for softer chorale work but I hope I'm wrong. (Edit: I just noticed a new "Christmas Morning" demo on the site which shows the softer dynamics.)

[marclawsonmusic]

Just got an email saying this was released. The demos sound very nice.

[wst3]

I'm really impressed - with the library demos and Alex's writing skills! The man should be a composer, wait, that won't work, we still need Cinematic Studio Winds<G>!

My only tiny little comment would be I wish he had included a C trumpet and a piccolo trumpet. I like to use these more often than even I'd expect. And if that is the best I can do in the complaint department I think I need to purchase this... as soon as Christmas spending for the family is finished (and paid for!)

[Tanuj Tiku]

Sounds much better than the earlier released demos! Glad to know it was just the processing after all. The articulation demo gives a much better impression of the sound of this library.

[Killiard]

I agree. Sounds much better than the earlier demos.

I like that you can also download a “raw” wav, so you can hear it with your own processing!

[tack]

Bought it. Will fiddle for a bit tonight but my fiddling time is regrettably limited this week. Let me know if you have any specific questions about the library.

Cursory observations:

• Legato is only medium or fast, no slow legatos as with CSS. That's probably ok as a slower transitions would probably be treading into effects/slides territory with brass.
• Unlike CSS which allowed for at least a simple vibrato crossfade, there is no vibrato control anywhere on CSB. The trumpet patches have a baked-in vibrato which is present but unobtrusive so it's probably a fine default, but if you wanted even a moderately expressive vibrato on your trumpets I haven't found it in CSB.
• The legato on the horns are excellent. Probably the best I've heard among the sample-based brass libraries I own (CB Core, SSB, BB) at least in terms of an out-of-box no-kung-fu-programming-needed experience.
• Trombone legato sounds a little wonky to me in places. That common phasey sound that plagues many brass libraries. I really just think there's something about the quality of brass instruments that makes this very difficult for sampling.
• Speaking of solo trombone, on that patch I ran into some bugs, with triggering samples an octave higher only the attack and release was from the correct octave. It wasn't consistent. (Edit: also noticing it on other patches too.)
• The dynamic range in terms of overall volume is quite large, but the timbre of the softest dynamic sounds like p to me (even though the docs say pp).
• Dynamics crossfading is about as good as I can imagine it with samples. You can clearly hear where the layers are, but I didn't notice any phasing or flanging problems during the transitions.
• Sustain articulation doesn't have different attacks based on key velocity like CSS has.
• The volume envelope near the lowest CC1 levels (5 and under) is jumpy. Very noticeable with a breath controller.
• In muted bass trombone, lowest dynamic layer of A3 (A below middle C) has a room click. First untoward room noise I've come across so far.

[wst3]

Obviously one has to put one's money down to know for certain, but none of your observations would be deal breakers for me.

I'd love a slow legato, but I'm not sure that isn't just because<G>... I played horn for 10 years, and trumpet for a little longer, and I'm not sure I remember playing what I'd call a slow legato, at least not in the same sense as CSS. It was a long time ago, I could be wrong.

The vibrato could be a problem from time to time, but I do have other brass libraries. I also think that it is something I'd use for a solo instrument, not an ensemble. And I can imagine a baked in vibrato could be quite effective in a solo instrument.

The false triggering is a concern, but it is also something that would be so obvious that I expect they will patch it pretty quickly.

Not sure I can tell the difference between pp and p, leastwise not in terms of a mockup. It will be nice to have anything that low, assuming the timbre changes as well as the volume.

A little disappointed about the lack of different attacks for sustains. It can be addressed by layering another library, but I'd hoped to avoid that sort of work-around, leaving layering as an artistic choice instead.

I won't be able to purchase till after the holidays, but I'll be busy enough that I probably won't notice. But short some kind of tragic flaw I'm certain I will make the purchase. The demos really are lovely.

[Jack Weaver]

Purchased it.

Like it so far. However, current work doesn't allow for a lot of time to play with it. The solo horn has worked well sonically for me.

It does seem like it would be great if NoamL would do Thanos-like program for it. Once again like CSS & CSSS, different timing delays for longs and shorts.

.

[NoamL]

Jack, I'm planning to remake the entire script around CSS+CSB. But first I gotta put CSB in my template properly