Omnisphere 2.5: Hardware Synth Integration and double voice architecture

[Guy Rowland]

Erik - yes, I’ve sort of moved away from the boutique idea for that very reason. The System 1m feels like a good possible compromise though.

Out of interest, are you on Windows? Are your CPU struggles related to Granular patches? I’d have thought that these new patches needn’t be that CPU intensive despite extra layers as they’re not using the most CPU-hungry features.

[GR Baumann]

And yes, two instances could be different hardware controllers. The only limit would be how much hardware you own...

I am not too sure, do you know this for certain?

I am wondering because say two controllers, each of which would be connected to a USB, and this may cause issues.

[Guy Rowland]

And yes, two instances could be different hardware controllers. The only limit would be how much hardware you own...

I am not too sure, do you know this for certain?

I am wondering because say two controllers, each of which would be connected to a USB, and this may cause issues.

Well in the video they seem to have multiple synths all hooked up to one machine, specifically the boutiques - they all appear to be running at once, and he just changes the profile, no re-patching. And there's a ton of them.

I'm not too familiar with how all these synths currently communicate with a computer, except they all use the USB protocol. I'm presuming that they all use some kind of common standard where each switch, knob and fader as it's own value a la midi CCs, its just the specifics of what control has what value. So if you're set to the System 1 and turn a control on another synth, I guess most likely it would either do nothing or be some random parameter. Hoping against hope, there is some kind of common framework at least for one manufacturer, eg all Roland stuff might share certain common controls and so you could cheekily switch profiles and have them work at least partially. Would dent the super-smooth experience though.

[GR Baumann]

Well in the video they seem to have multiple synths all hooked up to one machine, specifically the boutiques - they all appear to be running at once, and he just changes the profile, no re-patching. And there's a ton of them.

True, but he was not using two instances of Omnisphere. We shall know in due time.

[GR Baumann]

He hinted at one DAW still causing RPN trouble.... Cubase?

[Guy Rowland]

He hinted at one DAW still causing RPN trouble.... Cubase?

Not a clue, and *blush* I don't know what RPN is (quickly googles... sees stuff about RPM and NRPN being to do with data transfer protocols). I noticed all the laptops appeared to be running standalone which of course makes perfect sense, but I haven't seen anything to rule any DAW in or out. But if this is a known thing for a DAW, surely this is known by someone somewhere already?

[Ages]

No mixed mode, everything in the whole video is 100% Omnisphere, I guess a mixed mode would be your mixer! I did think it would interesting to a/b, but not in the way the internet is usually obsessed with a/bs. To me it’s not about “do they sound the same” it’s actually the opposite... how different are they? What new directions do the same physical controls take you?

Yeh I hear you. If I ever do pickup one of those old 80s synths someday, it's nice to know it might work with Omnisphere. But then again, I can't imagine I'd be using Omnisphere much if I had one of them Most of the patches I make are classic sounding anyway..

Still, I think this update looks great and they've done a really cool thing here

[The Saxer]

Funny thing that each controller synth sounds like the connected synth itself (more or less) without audio connection. Omni acts like a ghost writer. More than I thought the haptic and the limitations makes the sound. Would make sense to use different control synths to create different kinds of sounds. The main idea is really great!

I have the little MS20 controller made for the Korg Legacy Collection MS20. Works fine but the Korg software wasn't updated since years and the controller isn't available any more. Would have been a great controller for Omni but I don't think they'll adapt it to a dead product. On the other hand: meanwhile most of the little Roland Boutique synths are out of stock too.

[Guy Rowland]

Saxer - If they did do a patch for the MS20, I can see the 2nd hand value of those going through the roof.

Ages - I don't suppose they'd ever take the concept this far, but I was thinking how cool it would be to have a UI on one of their main tabs for each Hardware Synth, much like they do for Trilian patches. It would be a great way of working with these profiles for those who don't have all 20 hardware units (!). Having the presets will be great, but the ability to then tweak them in a manner consistent with the hardware would be the icing on the cake. Could be copyright issues with doing this, and while an SH101 would fit nicely into the Omni window. a Moog Voyager could be more challenging.

[Thomas Mavian]

Saxer - If they did do a patch for the MS20, I can see the 2nd hand value of those going through the roof.

But... Wouldn't that be kind of pointless? The MS 20 has no means of sending MIDI and if you did one for the MS 20 ic then you'd be controlling what? The Korg VST is already in software.

Or I might be missing the point altogether...

[Guy Rowland]

Saxer - If they did do a patch for the MS20, I can see the 2nd hand value of those going through the roof.

But... Wouldn't that be kind of pointless? The MS 20 has no means of sending MIDI and if you did one for the MS 20 ic then you'd be controlling what? The Korg VST is already in software.

Or I might be missing the point altogether...

(Korg released a short-run midified remote control MS20 to control their legacy VST called the MS20iC, that's the one we're talking about. That said, the MS20 mini would also work presumably?)

[Ages]

I don't suppose they'd ever take the concept this far, but I was thinking how cool it would be to have a UI on one of their main tabs for each Hardware Synth, much like they do for Trilian patches. It would be a great way of working with these profiles for those who don't have all 20 hardware units (!). Having the presets will be great, but the ability to then tweak them in a manner consistent with the hardware would be the icing on the cake. Could be copyright issues with doing this, and while an SH101 would fit nicely into the Omni window. a Moog Voyager could be more challenging.

That would be cool! Although I definitely heard him mention, at least a couple times in the video, that they're not trying to emulate these synths. But I was thinking "I wish you were!". It would stop me being tempted to purchase Diva. But then again, I'm pretty happy with what I can already create in Omnisphere

[Killiard]

I had a look at the list of synths supported earlier. Seems that my Novation Bass Station II (currently gathering dust leaning again my desk) is compatible, so I filled out the form for the public beta.

[Thomas Mavian]

Saxer - If they did do a patch for the MS20, I can see the 2nd hand value of those going through the roof.

But... Wouldn't that be kind of pointless? The MS 20 has no means of sending MIDI and if you did one for the MS 20 ic then you'd be controlling what? The Korg VST is already in software.

Or I might be missing the point altogether...

(Korg released a short-run midified remote control MS20 to control their legacy VST called the MS20iC, that's the one we're talking about. That said, the MS20 mini would also work presumably?)

I know, I have one right beside me. What I don't understand is why would you want to control something emulating something that's emulating something?

[The Saxer]

What I don't understand is why would you want to control something emulating something that's emulating something?

Because Omnisphere sounds better than the Legacy Collection MS20.

The integration of the MS20iC controller to it's dedicated MS20 software is much better than simple midi learn. But I like to use it anyway as a synth controller for Diva and a few other synths too. At least you can learn cutoff knobs to cutoff in the software, attack to attack etc. But having a complete integration of the controller to a great sounding software would be best of both worlds. And the assignment to the knobs (like range and characteristic) seems to go much deeper in Omnisphere 2.5.

Actually I don't really care what is emulating what. My first synth was the original analog MS20. Was it emulating a Moog at that time? Or an ARP? Probably a bit of both plus it's own approach to emulate a modular synth. I sold it because it's monophonic and you can't save patches. And I was young and needed the money for a Roland Poly 61. Couldn't imagine at that time that mono synths would get some love any more at all.
At the end there are three main parameters: Easy to handle? Sounds good? Good integration into the system?

[Guy Rowland]

Agreed, Saxer. And of course in Omni, the MS20 would be polyphonic if you choose it to be, which is a huge deal on its own.

I really like the notion of using the feel of a synth as your springboard, but can push things into slightly different directions... not the mission creep of wildly different, just like the original but on steroids.

(Cool that you have an MS20IC, Thomas - jealous!)

[Thomas Mavian]

(Cool that you have an MS20IC, Thomas - jealous!)

It's actually up for sale now. Interested?

The combination of a hardware controller controlling VSTs is great. Especially if that VST in turn controls a hardware synthesizer. For example, I control most of Blofeld and Mopho from the front panel of my Virus Indigo, thanks to MIDI routing in Studio One. Works great. Sounds great. And since the VSTs are saved with the project I never need to save any patches or even think of saving. It all just happens "automagically". Won't buy any hardware synth that doesn't have a VST companion. Best of both worlds.

[Guy Rowland]

Ooh I'll give it some thought... my main issue is I don't really have anywhere to put it though. So jealous both of the controller and the space to put it in...

[Erik]

Erik - yes, I’ve sort of moved away from the boutique idea for that very reason. The System 1m feels like a good possible compromise though.

Out of interest, are you on Windows? Are your CPU struggles related to Granular patches? I’d have thought that these new patches needn’t be that CPU intensive despite extra layers as they’re not using the most CPU-hungry features.

Yes, on windows. 7 that is.

[Guy Rowland]

I've applied to be on the beta for 2.5. and if I make the grade (being hardware-less and all) I'll have to shut up about the entire subject while the beta is running. So I need to splurge a bit right now, just in case, and several more videos have made it onto YouTube to while away a lazy weekend.

Synthtopia's is a slightly less good version of Sonic State's but perhaps worth checking out the section on the OB6 linked to the right point here, which wasn't in Sonic State's. (Ages - if you're here I thought of you at 13.00!)



This one from cuckoomusic has a really nice interview with Eric at the start, focusing on his very early days in synths. And - gasp - the true story of how the D50's Digital Native Dance was created.



Later on in the video in the Sub 37 section, there's some fun when Eric replaces the default noise layer in the synth with more esoteric Omni sources, using the rest of the synth to manipulate the results.

[Guy Rowland]

...and one more thing...

Some clever soul at KVR worked out that Lemur would be a perfect companion to Omni 2.5. The theory goes that since all the parameters from the hardware synths are just midi CCs, then it should be relatively trivial to set up a Lemur template for every single hardware synth profile (20 to start). Why bother you may ask... well, the idea is that by having access to the exact same controls as the hardware, you can tweak a preset for the particular synth in question (or program from scratch at a pinch), and you'll stay consistent with the feel of the synth in question. Also, since some of the controls are a bit tricksy under the hood, you wouldn't be able to easily replicate (say) the drive control on a Sub 37 otherwise.

So just to be clear... IN NO WAY is this as good as owning the hardware, but it's an awful lot better than nothing for the cost of £21 for the app, all in.

I got so curious about the idea - and it was a quiet evening and the dog walked - that I had a little play to see how things fit. It's a scrappy mess so don't look too closely, but I just wanted a broad feel of what might comfortably fit. This is set up to fit my Fire 10 HD tablet, a fairly decent sized screen. I tried one of the simplest synths, the JU-06, and it fits rather nicely on one screen. The faders feel decent and useable at this size, but I wouldn't want them much smaller (indeed, these are considerably bigger than the real boutiques). So most synths would need 2 pages or more.

This seems like a very cute way to get the feel of a lot of hardware synths. I have a bit of an aversion to touch screen control as a rule, but this seems a much better solution than trying to map a generic hardware controller, with ghastly uniform faders and knobs with erratic labelling and not grouped logically. At least with this test, things are arranged in a logical way and everything is clear to read. Two problems I've yet to solve - 1) while most of the controls are straightforward midi CCs, a few such as Unison, Solo and Poly on the JU-06, are not obviously there so could be tricker to get those ones working, and 2) it may not be possible to get data feedback from Omni, so the controls will all be in the wrong place when you first touch them (just as with the hardware)



[EDITED for a slightly tidier screenshot]

[The Saxer]

Ooh I'll give it some thought... my main issue is I don't really have anywhere to put it though. So jealous both of the controller and the space to put it in...

I just got the Roland SE02 yesterday (I didn't even switch it on up to now as I have to finish an arrangement before). Actually the Omni 2.5 announcement was the reason to pull the trigger. I wanted at least one synth of the Omnisphere hardware list. But it's a cute device and doesn't really take a lot of space. It's like 2/3 of a DinA4 page folded lengthwise.

[Thomas Mavian]

Ooh I'll give it some thought... my main issue is I don't really have anywhere to put it though. So jealous both of the controller and the space to put it in...

I just got the Roland SE02 yesterday (I didn't even switch it on up to now as I have to finish an arrangement before). Actually the Omni 2.5 announcement was the reason to pull the trigger. I wanted at least one synth of the Omnisphere hardware list. But it's a cute device and doesn't really take a lot of space. It's like 2/3 of a DinA4 page folded lengthwise.

Great buy! The modulation possibilities on that thing is amazing. It's on my "wish list"...

[Luciano Storti]

Ooh I'll give it some thought... my main issue is I don't really have anywhere to put it though. So jealous both of the controller and the space to put it in...

I just got the Roland SE02 yesterday (I didn't even switch it on up to now as I have to finish an arrangement before). Actually the Omni 2.5 announcement was the reason to pull the trigger. I wanted at least one synth of the Omnisphere hardware list. But it's a cute device and doesn't really take a lot of space. It's like 2/3 of a DinA4 page folded lengthwise.

Great buy! The modulation possibilities on that thing is amazing. It's on my "wish list"...

Congrats to Saxer for the new synth! And Thomas, you’re right about the capabilities, but what rubbed me wrong, besides the tiny controls, is that the sequencer doesn’t transpose the sequence. Is that still so or did an update to the software manage to “correct” this, anybody know?

[The Saxer]

I tried a bit playing with the Roland SE02 and Omni 2.5 beta.

I can't hook up the synth completely as it has mini stereo out and I need adaptor and about 8 meters cable to reach the interface input. There's also a USB audio out but no cable included. I have some USB mini cables (camera, Zoom), but it needs USB2 micro-B.

But it has Midi in/out and I could listen by headphone connected directly to the Roland. Fine fat little synth, very moogy!

Opening a HW profile in Omni is easy... just open the list and choose. Omni can now be resized (scaleable) and it's great to look at! There's a dialog box at the beginning when selecting a HW profile but it was covered by Omni because I had the bigger GUI size. I found the dialog box three forced quits of Logic later... couldn't do anything but 'flashing the screen' when trying to click into Logic. Didn't know there was a hidden diolog box open...

But after that: the HW integration is really great! When playing and editing I often thought: hey, cool synth... until I realized it was Omni playing! It's really easy and it's a one way connection. Only Midi out from synth to Mac. When loding a sound there's an immediate jump when touching a knob. But this happens at the Roland itself too after loading a patch and start editing (so no catch mode).
When loading a sound that uses other profiles (or non) it works too. Turning down Cutoff happens parallel in all layers. It's possible to edit per mouse different cutoff levels per layer but turning the HW knob sets all parallel again. You probably need a controller synth with independent filters on the hardware side to edit idependent layers. So the possibilities of the hardware selects the possibilities in Omni too... until you edit via mouse again. Selecting waveforms on the synth selects the corresponding wavetables similar to SE02 waveforms. When loading a Prophet sound there are Prophet waveforms. They keep active until I switch from hardware... then the SE02 waveform comes back. But it's still Omnisphere. The sound itself not the same than the hardware - but probably as similar as you can get with Omnisphere.