The Sound Board

Layers is a free chord-based instrument using their new Sine Player. Sounds absolutely lovely to me on a first listen... what an age we live in, folks.

https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/45

Wow!

Wow indeed.

Sadly, I need to install a new OS before I can run SINE (or the Korg Collection, for that matter), and in order to do that, I need to buy a new Mac as my current one can't run anything higher than El Capitan (10.11.xx) ... So it will be a while before I'm able to explore anything that's formatted for SINE.

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Piet De Ridder wrote: ↑Jan 16, 2020 10:19 am Wow indeed.

Sadly, I need to install a new OS before I can run SINE (or the Korg Collection, for that matter), and in order to do that, I need to buy a new Mac as my current one can't run anything higher than El Capitan (10.11.xx) ... So it will be a while before I'm able to explore anything that's formatted for SINE.

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Piet, the specs at the bottom of the link above state 10.11 as minimum system requirement for MacOS.

Sadly I can't try it either, as my login info isn't being recognised and there has been no email to my address having requested a password reset (checked spam too of course). I've submitted a support request.

Frustrating, it sounds terrific....

Luciano Storti wrote: ↑Jan 16, 2020 11:07 amPiet, the specs at the bottom of the link above state 10.11 as minimum system requirement for MacOS.

Thanks, Luke!
It's odd though because on the GetSine website the system requirements for SINE say that macOS 10.13 is required ... (which is why I never even tried installing it). Anyway, I'm downloading SINE while I'm typing this and I'll know soon enough whether it runs under 10.11 or not. I'll let you know.
Thanks again.

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Well, the stand-alone SINE software runs, as does the AU plugin in Logic, no problems there, but as soon as I try to download anything, it crashes. So I guess SINE isn't fully compatible with 10.11 after all.

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Booo, no AAX.

(But I'm downloading it anyway)

I really must try this Laura, but it's just possible that you could load it via Nugen's SigMod - it can supposedly host VST3s now.

Well, Sine is in - shall we say - beta-version? Maybe it is even a gamma-version if that exist. :-)

Piet De Ridder wrote: ↑Jan 16, 2020 10:19 am Wow indeed.

Sadly, I need to install a new OS before I can run SINE (or the Korg Collection, for that matter), and in order to do that, I need to buy a new Mac as my current one can't run anything higher than El Capitan (10.11.xx) ... So it will be a while before I'm able to explore anything that's formatted for SINE.

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Piet,

I successfully updated my 2008 MacPro to Mojave using this fellow’s patcher:

http://dosdude1.com/mojave/

If you have an older version of Logic (and other important programs) I would highly suggest trying it on a backup drive and seeing if it boots and is able to utilize your programs. I did it in reverse, cloned my boot drive but then updated it to Mojave, only to find that the clone of El Cap wouldn’t boot (sigh). Luckily, Mojave worked with almost everything. I had to update VEP 5 to 6, and the computer was a little more challenged cpu wise, but dosdude1’s patcher DOES work. Lots of anecdotal stuff on YouTube where he also has a video of the process. Cheers.

I got it, it sounds gorgeous! And, I will probably never use it. I just don’t compose that way.

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jan 16, 2020 4:17 pm I really must try this Laura, but it's just possible that you could load it via Nugen's SigMod - it can supposedly host VST3s now.

I have Source Nexus and can probably route it into Pro Tools that way, or I can open it in Reaper and definitely use Source Nexus to route it to PT.

Piet De Ridder wrote: ↑Jan 16, 2020 12:58 pm Well, the stand-alone SINE software runs, as does the AU plugin in Logic, no problems there, but as soon as I try to download anything, it crashes. So I guess SINE isn't fully compatible with 10.11 after all.

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Ugh, sorry to hear, Piet. Have you tried downloading in standalone mode instead? Perhaps stability is better there. I haven’t had time to install my copy yet and download, but I’m not in a rush. They seemed to be having some server problems when I last tried.

A steal at twice the price!

Only played very briefly with it. I'll need to take some time to wrap my head around the SINE player. Meanwhile, precursor observations (maybe Tobias is reading):

1. Account has annoying password requirements. My 24 character randomly generated password with lower case characters and digits is not good enough. (That's 124 bits of entropy for us crypto nerds.) Of course, adding an 'A' at the end of the password magically makes it secure. (OT is not unique here, it's just a pet peeve of mine.)
2. The SINE player download is a very respectable 55MB. Nicely done, OT!
3. I can't choose the installation path. I can only choose the drive letter, and OT assumes they are important enough to occupy a subdirectory off the root. Years of anal retentive directory organization out the window!

Now to actually see what it sounds like.

Luciano Storti wrote: ↑Jan 16, 2020 6:32 pm(...) Have you tried downloading in standalone mode instead? (...)

Yes, tried that as well. Everything seems to work fine — I "bought" LAYERS for $0 and the licence is now registered to my account — but the moment I press "download", the software (stand-alone or plugin) crashes instantly (and, in the case of the plug-in, Logic crashes with it).

- - -

Larry, thanks for that! I'll check it out.

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That’s unfortunate, Piet. Seeing that Logic also crashes, it might be worth sending OT the crash log that is generated after the crash so they can investigate. Provided one is created, of course.

tack wrote: ↑Jan 16, 2020 8:52 pm I can only choose the drive letter, and OT assumes they are important enough to occupy a subdirectory off the root. Years of anal retentive directory organization out the window!

LOL

Hi Piet,

SINE Player needs 10.13 or higher, mainly because of the downloader, which turns out crashes on 10.11, I'm afraid.
You should be able to run Layers on 10.11, though, by downloading manually. Send me an email to support@ot so I can get you going!

tack:
1. yeah, it is annoying... on our list!
2. thanks Macos version is larger, though, working on that
3. very much on our wishlist

cheers

Tobias

Oh! I have just seen, you can already buy single instruments inside Sine's store. Just JXL Brass (besides Layers) is available, but I did not expect that to be available that quickly.

By the way: I had expected Layers to be derived from existing OT libraries. But the chards seem to have some natural detune. Does anybody know, if those are new recordings? If that is the case, it really is a very generous offer. Otherwise, it would also be generous, just not for me, as I own every single OT library except for Nocturn Cello and JXL Brass! ;-)

@FriFlo
Don't know about old or new, but the chords are clearly put together from single sections, not recorded together. Why? Because they are in tempered tuning, while a strings orchestra would arrive at a more pure tuning.

Finally had a play with this, thanks to Tobias I discovered you have to create a new account, and merging with the old will happen further down the road. Download of player and then library was quick and seamless. As Jason pointed out, you can only set a root folder of a selected drive at the moment, but as it happened I already had an Orchestral Tools subfolder in mine, and the Sine player neatly added itself to my other OT libraries in that. The basic set of mic positions I tried - close and tree - comes to about 4gb for Layers.

It took a little while to get my head around how its organised. Oddly there seems to be no help available at all, neither in the plugin, no help manual in the install, couldn't see anything on the website and even a global website search of "manual" returns 0 results. Those YouTube tutorials appear to be the only hope. The first thing I wanted to change were the keyswitches that were mapped super-low. To do this you can change the range I think only in the Options page so its a global setting, and once done you then have to click the cog of what you have loaded in the Library or Performance tab and then press "remap with keyswitches".. By default, double clicking an instrument adds it to the multi-timbral list, you can drag and drop to overwrite an existing one but that seemed a little hit and miss to me.

It seems a little slow to respond for store and licenses where it gets info online. The store is only Junkie XL brass, but as promised there are single instrument options, which is quite slick - under the instruments tab of the library there they all are with audio previews, details and cost (which for JXL seems to range between 56 and 94 euros depending on instrument fwiw). Personally I'd love to see the option of reduced mic downloads for lower cost, but doubt that will ever happen as it would be too popular I suspect.

As for Layers, it is a very nice tone I think. There are definitely some tuning issues that you might juuust get away with in a piece. The brass has two very different velocities and I'd have preferred a longer transition between them and couldn't figure out how to do that - in the Dyn edit box I tried both sliders but they didn't affect the crossover point. As a product it reminds me a little of Cinesamples' CineOrch which similarly I haven't been able to use much in practice save for the magical Low Chords patch. Part of the reason why that particular patch works (aside from the superb orchestration) is that its laid out quite well across the keyboard with different types of chord acrorss the octaves, you can figure out a sequence without keyswitching. When you add-in any form of switching, as here, it becomes much much more difficult to play and figure out a sequence. I'd like a different sort of mapping entirely - at the moment we have inversions right up the keyboard which is nice I guess but locks you into solely the major / minor / sus4 variations. If they had an alternate mapping where you'd have the different chord types ranged right across the keys and a switch for the inversions, I think the user would be in with a fighting chance - doing a live pass for chords and a 2nd if you wanted to switch between inversions is much more musical than having to switch between chord types which feels rather like trying to rub your tummy and pat your head simultaneously. Maybe a paid-for update might add some useful functionality like this?

I've barely scratched the surface of the player, and it definitely has some cool ideas so hoping it develops into something really useful.

soundbylaura wrote: ↑Jan 16, 2020 5:35 pm

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jan 16, 2020 4:17 pm I really must try this Laura, but it's just possible that you could load it via Nugen's SigMod - it can supposedly host VST3s now.

I have Source Nexus and can probably route it into Pro Tools that way, or I can open it in Reaper and definitely use Source Nexus to route it to PT.

Very good. Beacause I wanted to know for my own nefarious purposes, I just tried using SigMod, which I tend to use a volume protector usually. As before when I tried it on an earlier version, it crashed on scanning the VST folder as a plugin in Pro Tools, I then tried in Cubase, where it also crashed at the smae point in the scan. I don't know which plugin crashes it, but my curioisty got extinguished at that point and won't be fighting with the VST functionality any more.

FriFlo wrote: ↑Jan 17, 2020 5:31 pm By the way: I had expected Layers to be derived from existing OT libraries. But the chards seem to have some natural detune. Does anybody know, if those are new recordings? If that is the case, it really is a very generous offer. Otherwise, it would also be generous, just not for me, as I own every single OT library except for Nocturn Cello and JXL Brass! ;-)

Yes, Layers is all new recordings, nothing is based on any existing content. All chords are recorded, so they are not "glued together" or so.

Hannes_F wrote: ↑Jan 17, 2020 8:19 pm @FriFlo
Don't know about old or new, but the chords are clearly put together from single sections, not recorded together. Why? Because they are in tempered tuning, while a strings orchestra would arrive at a more pure tuning.

no, they are not. All chords are recorded as they are, not edited from individual notes.

@Guy Rowland:
There's a growing User Guide at helpdesk.orchestraltools.com
I'm adding to it as we continue to develop SINE Player and based on user feedback. So if you miss anything, let me know! The old helpdesk was wayyyyyyyy too big. I want to not miss anything important, obviously, but I also don't want to write a novel that no one can read.