The Sound Board

There's quite a lot of complexities in here, so I'd recommend anyone with a close or even passing interest in Pro Tools read the Pro Tools Expert article closely - https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-p ... rade-plans . As ever, Avid are opaque - there is no link to a website for the full detail only a Facebook and DUC forum post, and some details are sketchy / contradictory / missing altogether, especially with regard to reinstatements.



My own situation is that I have one Ultimate and one regular perpetual license, both up to date. Ultimate annual support pricing stays the same, while Regular doubles. .

My gut feeling is that Avid are moving away from the semi-pro market, and concentrating purely on the professionals. I think with music that will be a mistake, as people coming through I much more likely to stay faithful to other DAWs even as they move into professional studios. When you compare Pro Tools costs with Logic in particular, there's little reason to stick with an old standard.

It's interesting that this should happen while I'm reevaluating my use of Pro Tools going forward.

This began when I discovered that Pro Tools hasn't been releasing all of my RAM when deactivating my virtual instruments. On average after a VI has been made inactive, Pro Tools continues to hang onto roughly 50% of the RAM it used for that plugin. This can add up fast when instantiating and deactivating a variety of plugins. Simply closing and reopening the session won't help. I have to quit Pro Tools and reboot it to release the RAM.

Shorty after discovering this issue, Logic 10.4.5 was released, showing no evidence of this problem on that DAW. I decided to call Avid tech support about this issue, and they insisted on using email instead to sort this out. At this point, it's still unresolved after several days of back and forth messages. As an Apple customer, I'm used to top notch technical support. Avid's support has been a letdown so far—not just compared to Apple but compared to Digidesign. So far, it's been all questions and no answers.

I already have Logic Pro X, but it was last my main DAW during the '90s (before the term "DAW" was coined). Nonetheless, it's been looking more and more attractive to me with its new disable/enable tracks feature, the intuitive tempo features introduced last year, and 1,000 tracks limit. Pro Tools' advancement during the same period has been relatively weak, in my opinion.

I can't imagine abandoning Pro Tools any time soon, but I can imagine it playing a diminishing role in my workflow going forward.

Best,

Geoff

Geoff - what are the specific plusses of PT for you? What is stopping you jumping fully into Logic?

It's mostly inertia at this point. Pro Tools has been my main DAW ever since it got its MIDI act together. I don't have to think about Pro Tools when I make music, as it's become second nature to me.

Also, I never really warmed up to the object oriented approach of Logic back when I was using it, and I've always preferred Pro Tools' way of handling audio to that of any other DAW.

Nonetheless as the negatives of Pro Tools are affecting me more, and the positives of using Logic are looking better, I am seriously reconsidering the way I work.

Best,

Geoff

Avid sure is making it hard for me to continue using their product. I have a perpetual PT Standard license; a subscription for a DAW is a non-starter for me. I'm already tired of continually paying for it (for updates) - getting up to about $1100 all told now, I think. I think what I'm going to do is buy 2 more years of update plans now so I'm covered for a while, and then buy Logic (and probably Reaper, for sound design).

It's a risk to pre-pay, 'cause who knows what Avid will do next month/year/2 years. I love Pro Tools, but these changes don't work for me.

ETA: The irony will be using the Groove3 deal Avid offers its users (get 3 free videos) to download Logic tutorials.

It's certainly a PTA, but as we always record into PT, there is no other option but to swallow the bile, and pay for the subscription.

Daryl - why specifically are you wedded to PT? I ask this question a lot I know... I'm always curious because there seems to me to be so little to really tie folks into it unless delivery to a PT file is required or you're in audio Post. I do think that it is good as a basic audio editor - considerably better than Cubase imo - but if all I did was music I'd almost certainly drop it.

Laura - sounds like a pretty good plan. Even at current prices, 2 years of plans is the same cost as buying Logic outright with free ongoing updates. I'm curious as to why Reaper would work better for you than Logic for sound design?

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2019 9:19 am Daryl - why specifically are you wedded to PT?

Because pretty much every professional studio in the world uses it.

Daryl wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2019 9:25 am

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2019 9:19 am Daryl - why specifically are you wedded to PT?

Because pretty much every professional studio in the world uses it.

But how does that affect your work? It makes sense if you are prepping sessions on PT and doing a final mix elsewhere, but not if its just for the record session. As you know of course, its relatively trivial to import the WAVs into another DAW (in fact its what I do almost every time as I prefer to do my music work in Cubase, mostly for the integrated VariAudio).

But yes, I do see it if you are routinely mixing your sessions in other studios, for now. I would expect most / all serious studios to be offering multiple DAWs as the years go by though, as I'd imagine more and more clients request this. When you think about it, the expense of keeping several DAWs current for a pro studio is peanuts compared to their general operating costs. I guess a limiting factor for some would be HDX though, as I'm not sure other DAWs can see those I/Os? (Sheesh, HDX really looks like a joke now that it has half the track count of software-only Ultimate). Post is far more protected, as other DAWs are still very limited in market share.

For me, I'll be keeping my Ultimate license going (price unchanged), but will almost certainly let my backup regular license lapse. I may do as Laura is doing and buy one or two more years in advance, but it probably makes more sense to just drop it. I've barely touched it as it is. Does anyone know if it is possible to install two different versions of PT on a Mac, btw?

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2019 9:42 am

Daryl wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2019 9:25 am

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2019 9:19 am Daryl - why specifically are you wedded to PT?

Because pretty much every professional studio in the world uses it.

But how does that affect your work? It makes sense if you are prepping sessions on PT and doing a final mix elsewhere, but not if its just for the record session. As you know of course, its relatively trivial to import the WAVs into another DAW (in fact its what I do almost every time as I prefer to do my music work in Cubase, mostly for the integrated VariAudio).

As there is copious editing after all recording sessions, and playlists are crucial to this, it makes no sense not to use Pro Tools. Try to import those into another DAW and it would send you mad...!

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2019 9:19 am Daryl - why specifically are you wedded to PT? I ask this question a lot I know... I'm always curious because there seems to me to be so little to really tie folks into it unless delivery to a PT file is required or you're in audio Post. I do think that it is good as a basic audio editor - considerably better than Cubase imo - but if all I did was music I'd almost certainly drop it.

Laura - sounds like a pretty good plan. Even at current prices, 2 years of plans is the same cost as buying Logic outright with free ongoing updates. I'm curious as to why Reaper would work better for you than Logic for sound design?

Don't really know yet as I haven't tried either of them, but Reaper is all the rage in the game sound design world, and from what I've read it has some neat features PT doesn't have. I'm interested in exploring it. That said, it seems Logic is way better for music, so I will need to figure out how to compose in there, and if I can do all my sound design in Logic too, that's fine.

Fair enough Daryl, sounds like you have a specific workflow where it makes sense.

I'll be curious to see how you get on with Reaper, Laura. I've tried two or three times and it sends me round the bend.... it always feels one step up from coding to me...

Just to let everyone know that with 4 days to go, Avid have finally clarified the reinstatement situation:

4. WILL AVID STILL OFFER UPDATE PLAN REINSTATEMENTS?
Yes. For specific eligibility please check with your Avid Account representative or local reseller.

5. IS PRICING FOR PRO TOOLS AND PRO TOOLS ULTIMATE UPDATE PLAN REINSTATEMENT STAYING THE SAME?
Yes, these Upgrades remain at their current prices ($299 USD and $999 USD respectively).

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=405253

So from the reinstatement cost of vanilla being 3x the annual support plan, it has now dropped to 1.5x. In other words - skip a year and you'd save. Until they move the goalposts again.

Thanks for the update, Guy.

I should post an update about my rig, since the situation is at least partly resolved (with a modicum of help from Avid).

I basically decided to upgrade everything, one piece at a time: my macOS to Mojave, Pro Tools to 2019.6, PLAY to 6.1.2, and Kontakt to 6. Mojave improved things a bit, but it was Kontakt 6 that solved the problem for the (formerly) Kontakt 5 instances. PLAY still remains a problem, only releasing 50% of the RAM when deactivated. As I use Kontakt a lot more than PLAY, I imagine my use of PLAY will decline even more unless I solve that problem.

Best,

Geoff

Geoff Grace wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2019 4:46 amI discovered that Pro Tools hasn't been releasing all of my RAM when deactivating my virtual instruments. On average after a VI has been made inactive, Pro Tools continues to hang onto roughly 50% of the RAM it used for that plugin. This can add up fast when instantiating and deactivating a variety of plugins. Simply closing and reopening the session won't help. I have to quit Pro Tools and reboot it to release the RAM.

Shorty after discovering this issue, Logic 10.4.5 was released, showing no evidence of this problem on that DAW. I decided to call Avid tech support about this issue, and they insisted on using email instead to sort this out. At this point, it's still unresolved after several days of back and forth messages. As an Apple customer, I'm used to top notch technical support. Avid's support has been a letdown so far—not just compared to Apple but compared to Digidesign. So far, it's been all questions and no answers.

soundbylaura wrote: ↑Jun 19, 2019 8:04 am ETA: The irony will be using the Groove3 deal Avid offers its users (get 3 free videos) to download Logic tutorials.

spicy, I like it

Forgive me Daryl, not criticizing, just asking.

Regardless of your DAW, why not simple send out tracks/stems all starting at the top of the cue, labelled by timecode position, so that they can bring it into PT without YOU having to use PT?

Summer NAMM will make AVID great again.
/A

Ashermusic wrote: ↑Jul 03, 2019 11:56 am Forgive me Daryl, not criticizing, just asking.

Regardless of your DAW, why not simple send out tracks/stems all starting at the top of the cue, labelled by timecode position, so that they can bring it into PT without YOU having to use PT?

Not sure the AFF-format allows for import/export of playlists.
It’s a must working with multichannel audio.
Best,
/Anders

lofi wrote: ↑Jul 03, 2019 12:58 pm

Ashermusic wrote: ↑Jul 03, 2019 11:56 am Forgive me Daryl, not criticizing, just asking.

Regardless of your DAW, why not simple send out tracks/stems all starting at the top of the cue, labelled by timecode position, so that they can bring it into PT without YOU having to use PT?

Not sure the AFF-format allows for import/export of playlists.
It’s a must working with multichannel audio.
Best,
/Anders

Again, why not just stems rather than a playlist?

Stems are something completely different from playlists.
Best,
/Anders

Ashermusic wrote: ↑Jul 03, 2019 11:56 am Forgive me Daryl, not criticizing, just asking.

Regardless of your DAW, why not simple send out tracks/stems all starting at the top of the cue, labelled by timecode position, so that they can bring it into PT without YOU having to use PT?

That bit's fine. Now how do we get the playlists back into any other DAW? That's a nightmare waiting to happen.

lofi wrote: ↑Jul 03, 2019 1:05 pm Stems are something completely different from playlists.
Best,
/Anders

I know, but why do they need a playlist?

I no longer am getting major league gigs so perhaps I have fallen behind the times, but for the gigs I do still get the audio I deliver goes into either Pro Tools or Final Cut Pro.So if I am delivering stems for a cue M2 that starts at SMPTE 01:02:03:04 e.g. I just send stems that all start at bar 1 at that timecode position and it's never a problem.

IMO if I were in Daryl's shoes and wanting to keep ongoing costs down, I'd just keep the perpetual license but not with a support plan. If you lapse support, the license still works up to the last version you are covered for.

One good thing about PT is that there are few must-have new features, and by and large you can open newer projects with older versions (and there's a Save As Earlier Version option as well, just in case). Record sessions are typically pretty trivial feature-wise, they're just very big beasts.

As it is, I guess that ongoing cost isn't a dealbreaker for Daryl, but its a general point that might apply to others.

On a completely different (and amusing) note the school I work for is upgrading our PC lab Pro Tools licenses from 10 and have to purchase all new licences. The head of my Dept nearly died when he saw the quote for $35k........ gotta love IT departments ordering PT Ultimate instead of PT Standard.

Ashermusic wrote: ↑Jul 03, 2019 1:10 pm

lofi wrote: ↑Jul 03, 2019 1:05 pm Stems are something completely different from playlists.
Best,
/Anders

I know, but why do they need a playlist?

I no longer am getting major league gigs so perhaps I have fallen behind the times, but for the gigs I do still get the audio I deliver goes into either Pro Tools or Final Cut Pro.So if I am delivering stems for a cue M2 that starts at SMPTE 01:02:03:04 e.g. I just send stems that all start at bar 1 at that timecode position and it's never a problem.

Sometimes when you record a session one player makes a mistake (or several players).
Having playlists are essential for those moments.
Same playlists are handy when you edit.
Etc.
Best,
/Anders