The Sound Board

woodsdenis wrote:I have used R2 for a year or so and just got Phoenix in the last sale. They are stellar and have that Lexicon sound, the Lexicon revs are great but as Jack said an EOL product which at some point , probably sooner than later will be obsolete or at best problematic. I have the Valhalla reverbs but for me the Exponential audio revs are used all the time since I got them, R2 being the Random hall type one and Phoenix being the more natural one. Their sale has just ended unfortunately.

Many thanks for this information, Denis! Since Phoenix is the more natural sounding, I suspect that would be the best choice for orchestral pieces.

Muziksculp wrote:

playz123 wrote:

Jack Weaver wrote:The Lexicon is an end-of-life product whose developer has left the company to start Exponential Audio.

Ah-h-h, that explains a lot then. Thanks Jack for that information; very helpful.

Based on this info. I will go with Exponential Audio's R2 instead of the Lexicon PCM Bundle. I really like the quality, and interface of Exp.Audio's PhoenixVerb (which I have). Their support, and products are first class !

Cheers,
Muziksculp

DONT FORGET you can upgrade to a bundle if you already have a product, there are conditions like you can't split them for resale etc. Even if it isn't listed, drop Michael an email and he will do a deal. I got a crazy deal on the Phoenix with an upgrade bundle in the sale.

playz123 wrote:

woodsdenis wrote:I have used R2 for a year or so and just got Phoenix in the last sale. They are stellar and have that Lexicon sound, the Lexicon revs are great but as Jack said an EOL product which at some point , probably sooner than later will be obsolete or at best problematic. I have the Valhalla reverbs but for me the Exponential audio revs are used all the time since I got them, R2 being the Random hall type one and Phoenix being the more natural one. Their sale has just ended unfortunately.

Many thanks for this information, Denis! Since Phoenix is the more natural sounding, I suspect that would be the best choice for orchestral pieces.

No problem, demo them both. I am making a very general statement about them, the R2 does more than the Random Hall stuff obviously. Personally I use the Phoenix for the shorter room and plate set stuff but the R2 does that too. I use the R2 for the bigger stuff , Halls etc.
Piet could chime in here about orchestral as that wouldn't be my main focus.

Not really knocked out by Phoenix reverb for orchestral, actually. It always sounds a little soft - not sharp-edged clean as a new pair of glasses, like I hoped it would be. Certainly doesn't approach Bricasti land - if that's what you're looking for in your imagination. I've heard some people say they use it for orchestral but honestly, it makes me wonder about their ears. I find more use for R2 for orchestral and orchestral/hybrid. I do like the Lexicon more for orchestral.

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I've demo'd both the Valhalla and Exponential Audio reverbs. Kinda sorry I did. The Valhalla stuff is wonderful, but with a limited budget I believe it is in my best interest to spend the $200 I'd spend at Valhalla on one of the EA reverbs. The differences are not huge, and if I had purchased the Valhalla reverbs I wouldn't regret it, but since I have yet to make the leap in either direction I'm going to start with EA.

I should also add that I own a hardware PCM-90 and the old LXP-1 & LXP-5. I use the PCM most of the time, but every once in a while the LXPs fit the bill. The PCM-90 is touch to beat. I also have the UAD Lexi 224 plug-in, it is a BEAR to program, but I am learning, and it does some very cool things!

I'm not sure when they instituted the upgrade policy, but since I own Excailbre (amazing plugin!) there is a bit of a discount. Sadly I too missed the boat on the most recent sale - other priorities for the studio.

All that said, there seem to be things that the Valhalla plug-ins can do that I can't do with anything else, so I may end up getting them too.

R2 does actually sound a fair bit like Lexicon's Random Hall. Although R2 is more transparent so a closer match does require an EQ in front of R2.

Can anyone comment on how this compares to the Relab version? Been waiting for a sale on that one and now this pops up. I like the Relab GUI better, but that may just be because it reminds me of my experience with the original. Wonder how the sound compares and if both work well at 96k. Any CPU issues for either?

X-bassist wrote:Can anyone comment on how this compares to the Relab version? Been waiting for a sale on that one and now this pops up. I like the Relab GUI better, but that may just be because it reminds me of my experience with the original. Wonder how the sound compares and if both work well at 96k. Any CPU issues for either?

The algos are based on 2 different machines , although there may be a similarity in them. . The 480 sound had a lot to do with its 12 bit processors and output converters. When I did Clannad records we used a combo of AutoPark and Silica Beads for their vocal sound. Never managed to achieve anything like the same on a PCM 80/90.

I must admit, In the past I've owned a PCM 90, a 480L, and a 300 hardware that still works, and the PCMs, though better than the lower end lines, never lived up to the 480L or 300 Hall sound. I'm looking for something close to that 480L Medium Hall, and I suppose the Lexicon PCM Reverbs will only get me to the PCM90 sound. Thanks for the info. Are there any others besides the Relab LX480?

X-bassist wrote:I must admit, In the past I've owned a PCM 90, a 480L, and a 300 hardware that still works, and the PCMs, though better than the lower end lines, never lived up to the 480L or 300 Hall sound. I'm looking for something close to that 480L Medium Hall, and I suppose the Lexicon PCM Reverbs will only get me to the PCM90 sound. Thanks for the info. Are there any others besides the Relab LX480?

NI/Softube do a sort of emu http://www.native-instruments.com/en/pr ... cts/rc-48/

I use the Relab and love it, It certainly feels and sounds like I remember the 480. I don't have a real one to A/B so thats just a guess. Its light on CPU and so far very reliable. I think UAD do one too.

No, UAD just a Lexi 244, very different.

Ashermusic wrote:No, UAD just a Lexi 244, very different.

Different, but lovely. Somehow it sneaks in on at least one instance in everything I do.

I'd love UAD to do a 480 version as well.

Agreed. I don't really need another reverb but the 480L I used to rent for scores was so special that a UAD version might be irresistible to me.

woodsdenis wrote:

X-bassist wrote:I must admit, In the past I've owned a PCM 90, a 480L, and a 300 hardware that still works, and the PCMs, though better than the lower end lines, never lived up to the 480L or 300 Hall sound. I'm looking for something close to that 480L Medium Hall, and I suppose the Lexicon PCM Reverbs will only get me to the PCM90 sound. Thanks for the info. Are there any others besides the Relab LX480?

NI/Softube do a sort of emu http://www.native-instruments.com/en/pr ... cts/rc-48/

I use the Relab and love it, It certainly feels and sounds like I remember the 480. I don't have a real one to A/B so thats just a guess. Its light on CPU and so far very reliable. I think UAD do one too.

Thanks for this. I actually skipped over this plug years ago because the reviews weren't great, but I didn't realize it was made by softube. Apparently it is "Inspired by" the 480L but doesn't necessarily sound like it. Would be great to hear other opinions about the 48, although I think I would still want an authenic 480 sound. I've heard great things about Relab, just been waiting for a sale or a good reason to take the plunge. Like Ashermusic, I've got a few too many reverbs already, just nothing like the 480. Thanks for the input.

Lexicon hardware... it strikes me that if you had three 480s in a room (well, first of all, you'd have to be pretty wealthy<G>) there would be differences between them, slight, but audible. Going further back I'm pretty sure I have never heard two PCM-42s that sounded exactly alike!

The 300 seemed to be the first really consistent model, and of course the PCM-8x and PCM-9x families are also consistent. But something definitely was lost when the PCM lines were designed, is it the better converters? Who knows, but they don't capture that Lexicon magic that many of us are chasing after.

I still have a PCM-90 in my rack, and it sounds better, to me, than any of my plug-ins. Is that because I'm more accustomed to it? Is it because it is hardware, or because it says "Lexicon" on the front? I don't know, but I do know it gets used a lot. I also still have an LXP-1/LXP-5 in the rack, and they don't sound like what I had hoped they would sound like when I bought them (100 years ago?). But they can still sound good.

I do have the UAD 224 emulation - this is a hardware device I never had the privilege of using, but I've certainly heard it on records, so I had certain expectations. For the most part it lives up to those expectations. One thing I did not expect was that it is a real bear to program! I feel like I am still learning how to use it. But it can add some real magic to tracks or a mix, so I'll keep it<G>!

If UA created a 480 emulation I would absolutely try it. And I suspect I'd end up buying it because overall I can think of only a couple UA plug-ins that disappointed me. If I had an unlimited bank account I'd probably own them all!

I remember trying the Relab when it was first released and it wasn't quite enough to get me to grab a credit card. It is close, probably closer than my PCM-90, but I wanted something that was closer yet.

Yeah, the 480 seems to remain the grail for many.

Ah yes, the mythic 480L - as seen on the humongous console of every major studio over the past three decades.

Great in its time, kinda just OK for these times. It's major advantage being a ' sound you already know' and of course is one of the major reverberant food groups. It is hardware so it's deeper sounding than most current software. I find it more useful for rock/pop as opposed to orchestral. (Personally I don't believe the Relab does the trick. [Disclaimer - I do have one friend who got the Relab, loves it and sold his 480] I think the UAD 224x simulation is reasonably close, but sure enough, totally lacks the edge and depth of the hardware.)

For those of us using samples, the advent and continuing release of more and more libraries with multiple micing setups with their 'realistic' ambiences is changing the playing field of what we actually need for reverb - software or hardware. Many soft synths are getting better at reverb also.

Please feel free to continue to lust after the 480 but the reality is perhaps a just a little different than your aspiration. When I use reverb I prefer hardware (but lots of reverb, delay & spatialization software shows up, too). I certainly don't mind using the 480. It does sound pretty rich. But it's kind of like, 'Where do I use it in sampled orchestral work?' Usually it works for some non-orchestral or hybrid elements within a sampled orchestral mix. Works very cool in a lot of rock/pop.

The PCM 96 is a bit more useful in orchestral sampled productions. Killer for WW. No remote though. Bummer. Doesn't sound anything like a 480. More like a 960. Makes sense because they were created by the same individual. But honestly, I just keep my 96 because it's the surround version. The software does actually sound so close and is easier to change presets than the hardware.

Lexicon 300's are really cheap these days. Close to a 480. People will think you have a 480 because of the LARC sitting next to your mouse.

I just want to reassure you. You don't have to own a 480. Or you can make me an offer on mine. It has the 224x cartridge and is in great shape. But I'll probably keep it a bit longer. It sounds good on rock/pop stuff.

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I'd bet your asking price you aren't in a hurry to get rid of it Jack<G>!

Same reason I keep my humble PCM-90 - there is a difference between hardware and software reverbs!

You are probably right about the gear lust part - I can't even guess whether a real 480 would live up to what I think I remember it sounds like... but that's ok.

I'm finding the discussions in this thread very informative and useful. My own dilemma today is I still can't make up my mind in which direction to head. I really do want a plug-in reverb with better controls than Spaces and one which will work well with a variety of orchestral and cinematic music...in fact with a wide range of music. And to use Jay's term, I also want it to work well as the final 'gloss' reverb and be able to control the tail separately from the ERs. At present my choices seem to be the Lexicons that are the subject of this thread, R2 and Phoenix or the Relab one...the latter being the most expensive. So I continue to seek opinions and demo the various verbs. Just finished demoing Valhalla and while it's quite okay, I feel it might be better suited for pop tunes rather than orchestral. Purity and warmth without colorization are two of my goals. So please keep the opinions coming. Oh, BTW, at present my own interest is software verbs, not hardware models. The only hardware one I have now is the Lexicon MPX1.

Honest question: what does it mean to add warmth without colorization?

tack wrote:Honest question: what does it mean to add warmth without colorization?

I guess it's basically a question of semantics. My own thoughts are that something can "feel" warm/right, without one also feeling that the sound itself as been affected or coloured in a negative way that is obvious, noticeable, apparent or unattractive. Does that clarify what I was trying to communicate?

playz123 wrote:Does that clarify what I was trying to communicate?

I think so. Basically you want color in a good way.

Hi Frank,

Maybe you'll want to get one each of the two main types - one convo and one algorithmic. They are so different.

Perhaps, Altiverb for convo and uhhhh, there are so many different types of algos. You say you want pretty clean. Hmmmm, let me think about it for a day or so. I don't want you to have to run thru a lot of hoops.

Personally to date, for convos (and I have a few) I find Altiverb very wide-ranging in its usefulness. Lots of different kinds of rooms, halls, spaces, etc. If memory serves me, I think you can try before purchasing.

I'll get back to you in a day or two.

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Jack Weaver wrote:Hi Frank,

Maybe you'll want to get one each of the two main types - one convo and one algorithmic. They are so different.

Perhaps, Altiverb for convo and uhhhh, there are so many different types of algos. You say you want pretty clean. Hmmmm, let me think about it for a day or so. I don't want you to have to run thru a lot of hoops.

Personally to date, for convos (and I have a few) I find Altiverb very wide-ranging in its usefulness. Lots of different kinds of rooms, halls, spaces, etc. If memory serves me, I think you can try before purchasing.

I'll get back to you in a day or two.

.

I agree about the convo & algo recommendation. but while i am nowhere near the engineer Jack is, I am going to disagree with him about Alitverb. No one is ever going to convince me that when you use a number of them it does not add muddiness that QL Spaces and some others, even Logic's Space Designer, does not. Can you deal with it? Sure, but why bother.

Ashermusic wrote:

Jack Weaver wrote:Hi Frank,

Maybe you'll want to get one each of the two main types - one convo and one algorithmic. They are so different.

Perhaps, Altiverb for convo and uhhhh, there are so many different types of algos. You say you want pretty clean. Hmmmm, let me think about it for a day or so. I don't want you to have to run thru a lot of hoops.

Personally to date, for convos (and I have a few) I find Altiverb very wide-ranging in its usefulness. Lots of different kinds of rooms, halls, spaces, etc. If memory serves me, I think you can try before purchasing.

I'll get back to you in a day or two.

.

I agree about the convo & algo recommendation. but while i am nowhere near the engineer Jack is, I am going to disagree with him about Alitverb. No one is ever going to convince me that when you use a number of them it does not add muddiness that QL Spaces and some others, even Logic's Space Designer, does not. Can you deal with it? Sure, but why bother.

Thanks very much Jack, and Jay. I too concur about convolution and algo. And re. Altiveb, I actually worked with it in another studio (although that was several years ago) and we kept switching back to Lexicons (hardware).
I definitely seem to like some sort of plate verb as the final reverb in the chain (at least I think I do), and I think it's that final reverb (currently a Spaces Digital Hall plate) that is not providing results with which I am totally happy. Spaces seems to work well though with some of the individual instruments, so it's not that I am totally unhappy with it...in fact just the opposite. But IMHO, its controls are also somewhat limited.
I suspect that tastes in what one thinks of as thee ideal reverb, and how one's ears react to reverberation, does in fact vary from person to person, so what I think sounds perfect may not sound that way to someone else. On the other hand, as long as it's just subtleties, it's understandable. But still one does want to produce something that overall does sound good to most discerning ears. While one probably never achieves perfection, I do find myself slightly uncomfortable with my current reverb plugins, so that's one reason why I'm taking the time to explore a little before buying.... and obtaining opinions as well as using my own judgement. The information I've received here has been most helpful to my thinking process, and I certainly appreciate the input.

OK Frank, I thought about it. Truthfully, if I follow my own work habits - get a bunch of different ones. One or two, no matter which they are, will work for all or most situations. Every piece I do has different reverbs. When I mix a movie score is the only time I repeat my reverbs and that's because of attempting to maintain a consistent sonic environment.

Buy a good plate (for software currently I tend to use Abbey Road Plates or the UAD EMT 140). Buy a good room package (maybe the PCM96 rooms). Buy any number of good hall and large spaces plugins. Get B2 - great fx reverb. Get SPAT - for when you don't want reverb per se.

I do not ever (well, 99.9% of the time) use an overall reverb. I tend to use different reverbs for different for different sections. For example strings and brass react totally differently to ER. I've written pretty extensively about this over the years at VI Control. Maybe if you're interested you could search for those threads.

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