Intreresting to me when two musicians I have DEEP respect for disagree so completely (Piet and Jack, in this case.)
It indicates to me that there is a degree of subjectivity as to which sample sets “speak” to you and which don’t. For example, I’ve always gotten on with LASS and so many haven’t.
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 26, 2021 4:50 am
by Piet De Ridder
I’m not sure whether the difference between Jack’s and my opinion on the Elite’s amounts to a complete disagreement, Larry. Jack (and many people with him) likes them very much, and me, I don’t like enough what I’ve heard thus far to spend 540€ on them. That’s it, really. But I would never call it a bad library. In fact, after listening to Guy Bacos’ excellent first demo “Race Against Fate”, my mouse pointer could be seen moving eagerly to the purchase button. It’s only after hearing the other demo’s, that it moved away again. Cause those other demo’s got me thinking: it’ll be another one of those libraries that has great-sounding shorts but lifeless and smeary-sounding longs. And I’ve got enough very useable short strings articulations and more than an unhealthy share of lifeless and smeary-soundng longs already.
Where I am in complete disagreement with most of the VSL-buying crowd, is on the subject of the Synchron pianos. And it frustrates me a little that I can’t discuss the matter, calmly and respectfully, because I’m immediately faced with a very defensive and indignant opposition (who refuse to even consider the notion that there might be something flawed in a VSL product) and the inevitable and insultingly idiotic “must be user error” rebuttals.
But back to the Elite’s: it’s my birthday in a little under two weeks time. Perhaps, if I feel like it, I might give myself an extra present and purchase them after all. I don’t know yet.
_
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 26, 2021 5:35 am
by Markus K
I had a very strange back and forth with it. First impression was great. Then I purchased it last week and after trying it a bit I immediately wanted to return it. The next day I played again and actually liked it pretty much. So much that I spent several hours to set up violins1 to my workflow so that I can use it with the different articulations. Today I tried to make some music again and finally decided to return it. Not because I don't think it can sound great but because I don't want to go through all that hassle only to find out in the end it is still not quite where I want it or it simply takes too much time. And after all I'm covered in this territory with SCS very well and need really something bigger and something to work fast with. Although ES and SCS complement each other in some way imo. Strange enough I listened to the SSS demos and wasn't all that convinced either although they should match SCS perfectly sound wise. Maybe I end up getting CCS after all. Having a real string orchestra at hand would put all this to an end
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 26, 2021 5:42 am
by Guy Rowland
Lawrence wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2021 3:34 amIt indicates to me that there is a degree of subjectivity as to which sample sets “speak” to you and which don’t. For example, I’ve always gotten on with LASS and so many haven’t.
This.
[ALL THIS GENERAL, NOT SPECIFIC TO VSL] A psychologist should do a study on us. A version of groupthink is pervasive. You could likely take any library an find legitimate problems with it, some more obvious than others. When the flaws are pointed out, they can become burdensome to people who were previously entirely happy. Then some sort of ghastly tribalism sets in. I am sometimes really bothered by things that nobody else finds problematic or can hear, and yet I know they almost certainly have better hearing then I. Soothe is a classic case in point. I just hate what it does when pushed to discernable levels, yet most people say its best in class. Shrug emoji.
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 26, 2021 6:15 am
by Daryl
Markus K wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2021 5:35 am
Having a real string orchestra at hand would put all this to an end
Amen. It's almost like trying to decide which turd smells the best. Almost...
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 26, 2021 7:02 am
by Tanuj Tiku
Piet De Ridder wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2021 4:50 am
I’m not sure whether the difference between Jack’s and my opinion on the Elite’s amounts to a complete disagreement, Larry. Jack (and many people with him) likes them very much, and me, I don’t like enough what I’ve heard thus far to spend 540€ on them. That’s it, really. But I would never call it a bad library. In fact, after listening to Guy Bacos’ excellent first demo “Race Against Fate”, my mouse pointer could be seen moving eagerly to the purchase button. It’s only after hearing the other demo’s, that it moved away again. Cause those other demo’s got me thinking: it’ll be another one of those libraries that has great-sounding shorts but lifeless and smeary-sounding longs. And I’ve got enough very useable short strings articulations and more than an unhealthy share of lifeless and smeary-soundng longs already.
Where I am in complete disagreement with most of the VSL-buying crowd, is on the subject of the Synchron pianos. And it frustrates me a little that I can’t discuss the matter, calmly and respectfully, because I’m immediately faced with a very defensive and indignant opposition (who refuse to even consider the notion that there might be something flawed in a VSL product) and the inevitable and insultingly idiotic “must be user error” rebuttals.
But back to the Elite’s: it’s my birthday in a little under two weeks time. Perhaps, if I feel like it, I might give myself an extra present and purchase them after all. I don’t know yet.
_
I have to agree with you there Piet. I got one of the Synchron Pianos (I think Steinway) and it just doesn't sound that great for some reason. I mean, perhaps it sounds decent, I just can't put a finger on it. I can't for some reason find it useful and it just sounds a little honky and bright and lifeless in most situations.
I think VSL are doing a really great job in expanding their series - everything seems to be high quality - except that for some reason, it just doesn't sound alive. I really can't put my finger on it. What is the problem here? Is it the way they record their samples (surely not technically)?
It's not the musicians or the venue - I have listened to some Synchron recordings and they sound very good.
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 26, 2021 11:56 am
by Lawrence
Piet,
Happy upcoming bday. I guess where I got confused was:
“While I would never consider buying the Elite’s,“
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 26, 2021 12:53 pm
by Piet De Ridder
Thanks, Larry. And: no problem. I'm pretty confused myself, you know. Only a year ago, I would have bought a library like the Elite's, warts and all, in a heartbeat. And be reasonably satisfied with it, I suppose. Because, on paper, this is the sort of library I've been hoping someone would release for a very long time: a detailed, versatile chamber strings orchestra, recorded in a not too overbearing space.
These days however, now that I find myself moving away from orchestral mockuppery, it's become a bit less obvious to spend serious money on product I don't really believe in.
I have no problem accepting that the Elite Strings is a very fine orchestral library, but neither my heart nor my head are in this type of purchase at the moment. A few weeks ago, I bought the G-Force impOSCar. I can't recall ever deriving so much genuine joy from an orchestral library than I've been experiencing playing this marvel of a synth.
_
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 26, 2021 5:36 pm
by paoling
May I guess a thing? When creating digital musical instruments there are basically two main approaches: recreating the instrument or recreating a perspective of the instrument. IMHO VSL, AudioModeling, SampleModeling are masters at recreating instruments. No personality whatsoever. Pure instruments. Anything player-specific is a detriment to the overall result of the library. You want a violin, not a violin performed by X. Also you get complete control over how the instrument performs.
Most of us, other sample developers, we often create perspective of instruments. A certain view over those particular instruments. Like the recent Tallinn from OT: choir and strings have been sampled dozen of times, but yet, it is a library with incredible personality, as well as it was Spitfire Tundra. Or Strezov's Afflatus. Personality a go-go. This second approach is what makes this job interesting to me, because the pursue of the perfect results, the monster library that puts all the others to rest, is a chimera that is not even worth pursuing.
That said I think that this library is way more emotional and good sounding than what I'm used to hear from them.
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 26, 2021 6:24 pm
by Markus K
paoling wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2021 5:36 pm
May I guess a thing? When creating digital musical instruments there are basically two main approaches: recreating the instrument or recreating a perspective of the instrument. IMHO VSL, AudioModeling, SampleModeling are masters at recreating instruments. No personality whatsoever. Pure instruments. Anything player-specific is a detriment to the overall result of the library. You want a violin, not a violin performed by X. Also you get complete control over how the instrument performs.
Most of us, other sample developers, we often create perspective of instruments. A certain view over those particular instruments. Like the recent Tallinn from OT: choir and strings have been sampled dozen of times, but yet, it is a library with incredible personality, as well as it was Spitfire Tundra. Or Strezov's Afflatus. Personality a go-go. This second approach is what makes this job interesting to me, because the pursue of the perfect results, the monster library that puts all the others to rest, is a chimera that is not even worth pursuing.
That said I think that this library is way more emotional and good sounding than what I'm used to hear from them.
True what you say. I had the glimpse of a hope that ES might put an end to the search for the one library that simply works as "the string ensemble" for all occasions so to speak or at least most. This hope seems to be a fata morgana in sample land. But the promise keeps us buying....
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 27, 2021 6:03 am
by Lawrence
Piet De Ridder wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2021 12:53 pm
Thanks, Larry. And: no problem. I'm pretty confused myself, you know. Only a year ago, I would have bought a library like the Elite's, warts and all, in a heartbeat. And be reasonably satisfied with it, I suppose. Because, on paper, this is the sort of library I've been hoping someone would release for a very long time: a detailed, versatile chamber strings orchestra, recorded in a not too overbearing space.
These days however, now that I find myself moving away from orchestral mockuppery, it's become a bit less obvious to spend serious money on product I don't really believe in.
I have no problem accepting that the Elite Strings is a very fine orchestral library, but neither my heart nor my head are in this type of purchase at the moment. A few weeks ago, I bought the G-Force impOSCar. I can't recall ever deriving so much genuine joy from an orchestral library than I've been experiencing playing this marvel of a synth.
_
What’s clear to me is this: when a purchase of any sort makes one happy and wanting to write? That’s a REALLY good purchase. Hopefully, we’ll have some Piet music featuring the ImpOSCar soon!
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 27, 2021 10:06 am
by Ashermusic
paoling wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2021 5:36 pm
May I guess a thing? When creating digital musical instruments there are basically two main approaches: recreating the instrument or recreating a perspective of the instrument. IMHO VSL, AudioModeling, SampleModeling are masters at recreating instruments. No personality whatsoever. Pure instruments. Anything player-specific is a detriment to the overall result of the library. You want a violin, not a violin performed by X. Also you get complete control over how the instrument performs.
Most of us, other sample developers, we often create perspective of instruments. A certain view over those particular instruments. Like the recent Tallinn from OT: choir and strings have been sampled dozen of times, but yet, it is a library with incredible personality, as well as it was Spitfire Tundra. Or Strezov's Afflatus. Personality a go-go. This second approach is what makes this job interesting to me, because the pursue of the perfect results, the monster library that puts all the others to rest, is a chimera that is not even worth pursuing.
That said I think that this library is way more emotional and good sounding than what I'm used to hear from them.
Agree with your entire premise, which is why I love your libraries, not sure I agree that it that this specific library meets that goal.
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 27, 2021 12:55 pm
by Muziksculp
paoling wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2021 5:36 pm
That said I think that this library is way more emotional and good sounding than what I'm used to hear from them.
Yes, It is.
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 27, 2021 1:02 pm
by Muziksculp
VSL decided to capture the string players 'Playing' their instruments differently for this library, I think they had them play more freely, and expressively, to capture the emotional content of their playing. Not just a mechanical instruction to play detache, or legato, or ...etc.
Listen to what Paul says in the beginning of this video :
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 29, 2021 12:45 pm
by Muziksculp
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 29, 2021 2:15 pm
by Mikeybabes
It’s a funny thing that people seem to have forgotten how to respectfully disagree these days, and sample libraries are just the tip of the iceberg. I really like the VSL Steinway - though much messing around was done to get it how I wanted. It easily becomes shrill if you don’t wind it’s neck in a bit. But I must admit I completely fail to understand why people must be ‘right’ about their favourite libraries. It’s just an opinion, after all.
I find pianoteq to be very troublesome in certain registers, but I certainly don’t feel the necessity of ‘correcting’ the opinions of those who think it’s the dog’s gonads.
I do wonder, however, that it might perhaps have something to do with the room and environment in which it is being listened too. Also pianos are often listened to when you are actually playing, and I wonder if the perception of the sound is a little different when a portion of your conscious mind is focussing on the doing as much as the receiving.....
It seems these days everyone is after some kind of group approval, and no-one has the confidence to like what they like, and rely on others opinions to validate their own. It is all rather odd, and perhaps a modern phenomena.
As the French are want to say - vive la difference !
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 29, 2021 5:20 pm
by The Saxer
That's true! I often even don't agree with my own opinion.
Using different string libraries feels like a complete different work. I just finished a track using Elite Strings and often thought: oh, that needs more vibrato... ah there's a molto vibrato... oh, soft attack... maybe sfz... oh, the trills are so fast... at the end I listen to the full orchestra track and think: is it really that different compared to libraries I used before?
A lot of sounds we use are really high end. Perfect rooms, always in tune... some more flavor to this or that direction but hey... strings. Good to have a lot to choose from. And I stay mostly with the libraries that are fun to work with.
What I like about Elite: they are not CSS and they are not Hollywood. Good for music like from Abel Korzeniowski, Barrington Pheloung, Jim Parker... Elite sounds more like British Drama than all Spitfire libraries together.
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: Apr 29, 2021 5:40 pm
by Muziksculp
The Saxer wrote: ↑Apr 29, 2021 5:20 pm
Elite sounds more like British Drama than all Spitfire libraries together.
I like that comment, and I agree.
Re: VSL Synchron Elite Strings (Chamber Ensemble)
Posted: May 01, 2021 12:32 pm
by Ashermusic
The Saxer wrote: ↑Apr 29, 2021 5:20 pm
Good for music like from Abel Korzeniowski, Barrington Pheloung, Jim Parker....
Oh dear lord, I have no clue who any of those people are. Man, I need to get out of my bubble more.
The Saxer wrote: ↑Apr 29, 2021 5:20 pm
Good for music like from Abel Korzeniowski, Barrington Pheloung, Jim Parker....
Oh dear lord, I have no clue who any of those people are. Man, I need to get out of my bubble more.
Barrington Pheloung is perhaps best known here of those three, primarily for this theme for the Inspector Morse series of the 80s/90s. Famously the rhythmic motif that starts the theme is M-O-R-S-E spelled out in morse code, which would feel indulgent if it wasn't such a great fit for the lead character's own love of puzzles. That makes it very satisfying. It's a great theme imo.
Jim Parker does loads of UK TV, inc Midsomer Murders - I don't know how much these series have travelled outside the UK so don't feel bad Jay.
I remember liking Abel Korzeniowski's score for Nocturnal Animals.
Anyway, I had a brief listen to the Elite demos, and I concluded I have an awful lot of string libraries.
