The Sound Board

Frank, it IS a fair point, but do me a favor-read my post in this thread (which typically is probably too far off topic) and tell me if you disagree.

Truthfully, I don’t care a lot whether P.T. or C.H. are the second coming of Jesus or the Devil-I’m more concerned with the business aspects of the products they sell.

playz123 wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2020 3:20 pm Sigh…same old, same old. Yet another new library gets mostly trashed here…now along with the developers, and with only a few exceptions. Most responses on this forum are (IMHO) extremely well written though, are articulate and definitely express the respondent’s opinion, and I do admire that. But what I do find strange about this forum is that, in general, it seems to be that 80% of the posts are critical…consistently. Is there really no library or development team about which reaction is also positive? Does nearly every new library need to be picked apart and then basically rejected?

I don't have a problem with a lot of critical posts. It might be, because it really is a rare occasion that there are great products?! Developers would of course like to say that all their products are great - they want to sell them all for sure! ;-) As a public forum, it doesn't make much sense to join in with that.

playz123 wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2020 3:20 pm Personally, I often hesitate to report here that I like a library, or mention the features I find useful, because it feels sometimes as if I might as well ‘save my breath’…other posts will indirectly point out why that should not be the case.

Why? I have never seen someone here getting bashed for saying what he or she likes. It is rather the other way around: on the other forum, you often get bashed for calling out a problem (in my case banned). This is a new-age-philosophy, that everything critical or negative is bad and everything positive is great and good for the soul. Maybe that is what something people got form Yoga or Zen-Buddhism (although I think they missunderstood it), but it is not what I think is helpful or leading to anything good in a capitalist world. And part of this forum as much as any of these kind of forums is based on products, hence, we have to deal with that aspect.

playz123 wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2020 3:20 pmThere is no question that sharing one’s analysis of a library is useful and of course honesty is valued. But what I am suggesting is that not every library that comes out needs to be ripped apart and micro analyzed as well. Perhaps ‘constructive criticism, but combined with some positive comments would prove more palatable to some of us? Gosh, even videos and the ‘other’ forum’s short comings are open to criticism.

With Spitfire, it is a special case, I would say ... look for posts about other developers on TSB. You will not find the same negativity. There are several reasons for this (IMO). Spitfire is built around a marketing of superlatives and kind of a special hipster-aesthetic. Other companies also do the teasers from time to time and get caught up with marketing slang. But no one comes close to how SF does that.
Spitfire guys are on the other forums and they just cannot stay out of discussion about their products. They should know, it would be the smart thing to do, as almost every other developer does that way better. I get, that it is hard to read about people complaining about the stuff you make! It is pretty much the same as seeing a dear composition of yours being destroyed in public. But it is just the smart way to go! That is also how I got banned from the other forum. Paul Thompson got involved in something negative I wrote about their player and as a consequence Mike Greene banned me.
They also release so quickly and do not fix problems enough. Yes! They release a lot of updates! But in the case of Chamber Strings it becomes obvious that releasing updates can also become a symbolical act, if after many years even the most glaring problems have not been removed (Chamber Strings). I am not claiming all other companies do perfect QC and updates. But some do and the biggest competitor (Orchestral Tools) at least do not bitch about the complaints on public forums ...

playz123 wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2020 3:20 pmTo be clear, I do respect someone’s right to express their true opinion, and I believe that respect has been demonstrated over the years. What I am saying is maybe we could look at the good side of things more often as well. For example, for those of us who have met Paul and Christian know for a fact they are not the type of people some have suggested they are. For example, Christian has been more generous to me personally than any other developer I’ve ever met and Paul’s kindness has been heart warming and unquestionable. Both give far more back to our community than do most others. Again, in my opinion, their enthusiasm for their products and their love for what they do should never be seen as simply a way to get us to spend money. That’s just wrong!

I don't think these kinds of reasonings are helpful at all. It is really irrelevant how you personally get along with any of these people. They are running a business that makes a lot of money and for that reason it is essential to separate the private people from the heads of those companies. Maybe for really small developers I would kind of accept that sort of approach. But not with companies that make as much profit as they do. And it is exactly the narrative they have been feeding!
Think about it: if a politician or the head of a bank is getting into trouble, would you jump out of the bush and defend them, because they are nice chaps at the bar or great dads to their kids? Maybe you would as a friend, but it would be totally irrelevant to the public interest.
No, while Spitfire is certainly not as important as government or a big bank, they are a comparatively speaking big business in our world of music and therefor, they have to accept that people talk about the stuff they try to sell to us and also the way they package it. Turning that into a personal offense is exactly the mistake they do. Don't fall for that ...

Frank, if there is a negative bias here about libraries, I think the root cause is just that our (participating) user base tends to be largely old hats that have been around the bend and back. It takes something special and innovative to garner excitement, so the first impressions of sample libraries are usually more from a dispassionate utilitarian perspective. Because we don't get a lot of posts from novice users here (unfortunately) the tone isn't counterbalanced by optimistic enthusiasm.

In the case of this library, we don't really see anything novel, despite the gushing marketing angle, which sets an initial tone of cynicism. Most of the comments here so far are more along the lines of "nothing useful to me here" with the a couple over-the-top reactions (like Georg's).

Posting praise about a library is certainly welcome. Especially when it's detailed and balanced.

Very well said, Jason. One might add, this forum consist of old hats with thousands of dollars of libraries sitting on their hard drives (or rather SSDs). Marketing will always present you with reasons to buy just another String library! But is that new library really giving you so much extra, that it is worth spending the money again?

All of us actually know that spending coin on our toys is actually an addiction. On Vi-Control, it seems to me, the majority of users are rather celebrating that addiction with some GAS-jokes, here we rather fight it. If there is a lot of negative talk about new products, I guess that reflects that.

Lawrence wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2020 7:47 pm Frank, it IS a fair point, but do me a favor-read my post in this thread (which typically is probably too far off topic) and tell me if you disagree.

Truthfully, I don’t care a lot whether P.T. or C.H. are the second coming of Jesus or the Devil-I’m more concerned with the business aspects of the products they sell.

Hey Larry, I did read your post previously as well and, as has happened most times in the past, I found nothing that might be described as criticism or with which I would disagree.. Seems to me you just expressed an 'opinion' that most would consider to be valid. Certainly nothing there that was directly related to my comments. Cheers!

Thanks to everyone who replied to my message, and I do appreciate all the feedback and especially the support expressed. Hope everyone understood that at no time was I suggesting criticism should always be avoided...it definitely has value and I think most people understood that. Rather what I was trying to get across is that I feel that 80% criticism on a regular basis, without looking at the positive side as well, does not provide a balanced and fair approach in discussions.

And as for the suggestions that (for example) "if there is a negative bias here about libraries, I think the root cause is just that our (participating) user base tends to be largely old hats that have been around the bend and back".....Well...LOL...this old geezer certainly can claim to be one of those people as well. Certainly I was involved in music long before some of you "whippersnappers" were in diapers. [Sorry I just had to write that ! It's an expression my grandfather used to use]. And other than Larry, who claims to be well over 100, I'm probably one of the oldest members of this forum....or most others! Doesn't mean I know anything or as much as others do, but I can definitely claim to an "old hat" and old everything else as well. I can honestly say there are also few areas of the music industry in which I haven't been involved over the years. But again, I don't consider myself to be an expert in any of them, so am constantly learning. That's one reason why I want to always look at this forum as a valuable source of information, not a place where criticism is generally first and foremost. Cheers.

Frank- in the case of Spitfire, would you agree that the tenor of discussions about them on VI-C, both positive and negative, tend to be hyperbolic, with many more posts on the positive side than the negative?

Would you also agree that though their sampling expertise has been well established, QC is their weakest area?

Lastly, would you also agree that it would be nice if they would put a bit more time and effort into QC and maybe release a few less products if that’s the balance that needs to be struck?

Those issues are what I think some of us are on about. YMMV, of course, and I’m not trying to pile on you! I’m genuinely curious.

Lawrence wrote: ↑Jan 22, 2020 5:54 pm Frank- in the case of Spitfire, would you agree that the tenor of discussions about them on VI-C, both positive and negative, tend to be hyperbolic, with many more posts on the positive side than the negative?

Would you also agree that though their sampling expertise has been well established, QC is their weakest area?

Lastly, would you also agree that it would be nice if they would put a bit more time and effort into QC and maybe release a few less products if that’s the balance that needs to be struck?

Those issues are what I think some of us are on about. YMMV, of course, and I’m not trying to pile on you! I’m genuinely curious.

1. I might be wrong. But I'd estimate s 80/20 in favor for negative at TSB.
2. some might argue marketing is their weakest area
3. or could it be that they are targeting different markets with their releases? Not all are writing orchestral.
Just the other week I was working on this drama. I'm doing the "cinematic" music that gets combined with chart music.
And this familiar nail sample, the one that Christian H always keep going about, popped up in the pop-track.
Have to go back to the episode to find out what track it was, but I've heard it on radio (or on the internet/streaming) prior to this. I'd only noticed it since my sketching piano is the SF one and my cue borrowed some from the pop song in order to glue the music together bla bla bla ... you know.
So I guess the SF stuff travels outside of orchestral mockup world.

On a more rhetorical level.
Maybe one day SF will release something you'll want to buy, maybe that day will never come. Who knows?

Best,
Anders

Edit: for the sake of my pride --> Once finished writing the SF piano then gets swapped for a real piano

playz123 wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2020 5:13 pm Here's a new video from Homay covering the Brunel Loops in Neo. I. for one, find them most appealing and versatile, and perhaps they are worth considering as well when assessing the library?

With all these pre-made sounds...at a certain point it's like, who's writing the music here? Is it you or the developer? And how do you sound different? With something like Slate&Ash Auras, ok sure; a lot of material and how you "play" it really determines the result. However, SF and others are really just selling the "feeling" of creating music in a lot of cases. With so much raw material, plugins, dirt cheap analog and digital hw synths, guitars, etc. it's hard to see how someone couldn't just approximate these kinds of sounds themselves. Don't get me wrong, the sounds in this video ARE nice but they have no musical context going into it for me bc I didn't create them.

I can totally understand using string/orch/piano libraries since the cost of recording those for the most media composers or hobbyists is prohibitive. On that topic, I did thoroughly go through NEO's strings at NAMM (with those noise-cancelling headphones at the demo station) and they sound great. If you don't have SCS or if you rely heavily on Sordino/Sul Tasto/Flautando patches and need a slightly (VERY slightly) different take on those then there they are. If I could just buy Neo and Kepler strings I would eventually.

For me the practical issue with all this kind of stuff is Kontakt. I've never been able to get on with it as a sound design engine. There's no way here to search for a relevant patch as a starting point, and no obvious way to manipulate it in any depth. I have eDNA Earth, and although in theory it offers quite a lot of versatility, in practice I find it clumsy next to something that is actually designed to do this job, especially Omnisphere.

I'm aware I have a ton of really great sound design content across scores of Kontakt libraries from many developers, but I hardly ever end up using them all for pretty much these kinds of reasons. Omnisphere endures, and is a first port of call for me because a) you can search and browse intelligently and b) you can start from scratch or manipulate patches yourself with a huge variety of tools.

Re. Larry's questions:
Frank- in the case of Spitfire, would you agree that the tenor of discussions about them on VI-C, both positive and negative, tend to be hyperbolic, with many more posts on the positive side than the negative?
—Not only hyperbolic, but also not even based on facts sometimes. New members especially sometimes seem to try and ‘go with the flow’. If it’s negative then that produces more negative posts. IMHO, the trend these days seems to be that if one posts something negative, even if it’s wrong, one will appear to be knowledgeable and cool. In contrast, to be labelled a “fan boy” is something no one appreciates.

Would you also agree that though their sampling expertise has been well established, QC is their weakest area?
—Definitely. They do fix some things eventually, but there would be a lot less complaining by many if fixes occurred more frequently. As with any business though, sales are what bring in money, not ‘after the sale’ maintenance. No excuse though.

Lastly, would you also agree that it would be nice if they would put a bit more time and effort into QC and maybe release a few less products if that’s the balance that needs to be struck?
--- Agreed. I guess any music company can try to have excellent quality control though, but also with so many people looking for the slightest fault every time a product is released, there are bound to be even more times when that quality control has noticeably faltered. A lot of us tend to focus more on Spitfire for some reason, but there are other companies that need to pay more attention to fixes and QC as well.

I’m not trying to pile on you! I’m genuinely curious.
---Of course not; that’s not who you are, and I enjoy our discussions... as well as those with the other gentle men and women here who are passionate about something I love.
Cheers, mate!

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jan 23, 2020 4:52 pm For me the practical issue with all this kind of stuff is Kontakt. I've never been able to get on with it as a sound design engine. There's no way here to search for a relevant patch as a starting point, and no obvious way to manipulate it in any depth. I have eDNA Earth, and although in theory it offers quite a lot of versatility, in practice I find it clumsy next to something that is actually designed to do this job, especially Omnisphere.

I'm aware I have a ton of really great sound design content across scores of Kontakt libraries from many developers, but I hardly ever end up using them all for pretty much these kinds of reasons. Omnisphere endures, and is a first port of call for me because a) you can search and browse intelligently and b) you can start from scratch or manipulate patches yourself with a huge variety of tools.

I think few, if any, can disagree with that, Guy. But I think pre-designed sounds like those in the SF Evos, Earth, and the Brunel Loops etc. have value as well and can not only inspire, but can work along side Omnisphere as well. When time is of the essence, one cannot always spend time on creating new sounds or designing them, and that's when one must rely on the efforts of others. But then again, I know you already know all that. Just saying....

I guess this is why for this kind of work I'm much more interested in Omnisphere expansions than Kontakt bolt-ons. In fact, there's no reason why the likes of Spitfire, ProjectSAM or anyone couldn't release separate Omnisphere versions of some of this material, since sample import is now a thing. I'd likely be all over that... getting interesting new soundsources into their ecosystem is a great idea. If Spitfire released an Omni expansion called Albion Reduxed, imagine how huge that would be. We won't see it though, because they've invested in their eDNA concept.

I remember when eDNA first came out and the hoopla around it was all "this is gamechanging, all-new content", I said something to the effect of "well no, its exactly what Omnisphere has been doing for years". Either Christian or Paul replied "yes, but I always prefer to roll my own". That seemed such a bad reply... I think he was referring to not using presets and coming up with never-before heard stuff, ignoring the fact that the moment its released it instantly becomes more presets that aren't original.

For me, its all about the ecosystem. Kontakt is king for sample libraries but not sound design, drum kits or beats players where there are other much more suitable hosts.

Speaking of Omnisphere, I'll shortly have a bit of interesting news to share... what a tease I am.

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2020 4:05 am
Speaking of Omnisphere, I'll shortly have a bit of interesting news to share... what a tease I am.

Did you convert Eric to change the whole tagging system?

Jaap wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2020 5:55 am

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2020 4:05 am
Speaking of Omnisphere, I'll shortly have a bit of interesting news to share... what a tease I am.

Did you convert Eric to change the whole tagging system?

Ha! No, but it is tag related... (of course it is, is me...)

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2020 6:14 am

Jaap wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2020 5:55 am

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2020 4:05 am
Speaking of Omnisphere, I'll shortly have a bit of interesting news to share... what a tease I am.

Did you convert Eric to change the whole tagging system?

Ha! No, but it is tag related... (of course it is, is me...)

Nice! Looking forward to that news then.

And? About that news?

Fleer wrote: ↑Feb 10, 2020 9:41 pm And? About that news?

Ach, you know how it goes, unexpected delays... but really shouldn't be too much longer now.

You sure know how to keep a guy on his toes, Guy!

On a more general sort-of-on-topic point, perhaps one reason this release has been met with such apathy is not just that its well-trod ground, but also that it seems behind the curve now. An entire sector of the sampling market still seems to be dominated by Scandi-Noir. That was all the talk about 7 or 8 years ago (even though it was only ever a fairly rarified pleasure). As a movement its crest has definiely peaked.

It seems to me the most current trend is Hildur Guðnadóttir (I have to google and paste that name every time...) I'd bet the farm on the Chernobyl and Joker scores being used to temp everything for the next 12 months, and I'm waiting for the rush of sample libraries to exploit it - deep sampled twisted cellos and instruments made from industrial doors. Of course this isn't exactly new.... Omnisphere has been doing this sort of thing since day one, but in marketing terms it feels like a void.

And perhaps more than just marketing. One thing I've been thinking that would make an interesting release is an arsenal of fully playable non-real acoustic instruments. These might be made from any source, and should sound and play like something that really exists as an actual instrument but doesn't. The key would be expressivity in playing, simulated legato techniques, playing styles and ornaments. Vaguely ethnic flavours in some cases would be good too - to use a duduk in something Middle Eastern is a crass cliche now in a serious dramatic context, but something that more subtly evokes the feeling would be welcome. There was a modelled winds library a while ago that might almost fit the bill, but can't remember what it was now... it failed as something that sounded like real winds, but it sort of evoked them in a general sense.

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020 4:04 am It seems to me the most current trend is Hildur Guðnadóttir (I have to google and paste that name every time...) I'd bet the farm on the Chernobyl and Joker scores being used to temp everything for the next 12 months, and I'm waiting for the rush of sample libraries to exploit it - deep sampled twisted cellos and instruments made from industrial doors.

Here you go



https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/ ... ric-cello/


https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/ ... o-strings/


https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-z/ ... ust-vol-2/

/Anders

Hmm yeah, kinda close there Anders, but nothing entirely like what I meant. I was thinking of a somewhat tortured themed set of a whole box of tricks - Sound Dust seems closest though seems much lighter tonally... I thought it was predominately electronic but there is stuff here that is very much Omnisphere territory. I can't abide the sound of electric cellos, that's a step in the wrong direction imo though I can see why you suggested it. The alt strings sounds pretty good actually, but lack of legato is sorely missed.

I think one of the main elements that is perhaps missing is in the performance aspect of it, more than just cool samples. Something you can really play expressively.

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020 10:17 am I think one of the main elements that is perhaps missing is in the performance aspect of it, more than just cool samples. Something you can really play expressively.

Hey, there was a in the beginning. Perhaps I should've done

But on a serious note, you can't beat live soloist with samples, not even with the sample/synth that is omnisphere.
I don't think Spitfire is trying to, I don't even think they are trying to beat the orchestra (as a collective).
They are giving us options to use in our workflow, as is Spectrasonics etc..
Some may like it, others won't.

If a held note or chord with any library engages us to write some music then that's great(!)
But if one thinks that "the new thing" will make us great and replace not only musicians but other composers, teachers etc
Then I think we are on the wrong track and, again, I don't think Spitfire is trying to derail us.

Best,

Anders

The new 8dio "custom made" string instruments everwave, circle string, and super string might be made to fit this (chernobyl-y) vibe.

Blake Ewing wrote: ↑Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm The new 8dio "custom made" string instruments everwave, circle string, and super string might be made to fit this (chernobyl-y) vibe.

It does sound that sort of vibe, doesn't it?



Sounds like they got a lot of interesting sounds out of it, but again not really playable as such as far as I can tell. I'll grab it for $38 in several months though for sure.