The Sound Board

Muziksculp wrote: ↑Feb 19, 2021 3:56 pm

Chapbot wrote: ↑Feb 19, 2021 2:11 pm

Muziksculp wrote: ↑Feb 18, 2021 4:18 pm

Jaap wrote: ↑Feb 18, 2021 1:54 am A very very happy user here. I am using it straight away in for an album I was asked to do by one of my publishers and though I have some good string libraries (LASS, CSS, HS and HZS, though the latter is maybe a bit of an oddball in the list), what I love about MSS is the extreme flexibility you have and all those great options with recorded ostinatos, runs, divisi, detune (awesome!), intuition patches, aleatoric etc etc just at your fingertips. They provided Expression Maps with the release and its a breeze that I don't have to set that up and can just work straight out of the box with it. It doesn't require the setup you had to do with LASS.

I personally like the tone. It's warm, full and rich and far less "harsh" as LASS can be. I don't understand why they have turned on 3(!) convo reverbs on the patches, but once you just select one from the many convo options (some really nice ones) or leave it off and run it through your own reverb setup, I find it beautiful and blending it now with CSB, CSW and some other things and that works lovely as well (though need a bit of work to make the room match, but that isn't any different then with using another library).

On VI I see a lot of fuzz about the legatos, but I never understood all the discussions about the legato (though I think they ment portamento). With some tweaking and carefull playing (like any other library) you can get very lovely results.

I am completely sold!

Hi Jaap,

It was very refreshing to read your post abut MSS here.

Most of the posts I have encountered on VI-C have been negative, or critical of the Legato, or other details about MSS. I don't have a clue what to make of all the negativity towards it.

I'm going to cautiously wait, and observe the user feedback about it, and then decide if I need it, or not. I'm also excited about the upcoming Sonokinetic Strings which has Divisi as well. It will be out in April.

If you have the time to post more feedback about your experience with MSS, I'm sure it will help better evaluate it.

Thanks,
Muziksculp

When you just spent $549 for a library you've been anticipating for years and it sounds like 2010 then you'll understand the negativity LOL. In addition to the legato wonkiness I'd describe the tone as dated and static.

Hi @Chapbot,

I totally get it that you are not happy with MSS. I'm reading mixed feedback about it, but mostly on the negative side. I think it's a library that needs to be edited by each user to their taste, and might require more time massaging it. I doubt it is a useless library, I'm guessing it's just not an easy library to get instant wonderful results from.

I have decided to stay away from MSS, at least for now, and use my current collection of Strings libraries, and make music, instead of dealing with learning a new, costly, complex, and not so much rewarding library like MSS.

Having said that, I'm still interested in what LASS 3 will offer, but it won't be out until the end of this year.

The other Strings libraries I'm excited about are :

* Sonokinetic Strings, they will also offer Divisi Strings (Due in April).

* Also looking forward to see OT-Berlin Strings, and its expansions in SINE format.

* Updates to some of my current Strings libraries, that will further improve them.

* CineSamples : CineStrings Pro , might surface sometime this year.

* VSL : Maybe some new Synchron based string libraries, i.e. Synchron Chamber Strings, Synchron Solo Strings, ..etc.

* Spitfire Audio Abbey Road Modular Orchestral Strings. Not sure when we can expect this, but I'm interested.

Cheers,
Muziksculp

Yes I am super excited about the Sonokinetic library!

You know what's funny I A/Bd MSS against LASS and realized how realistic and clear LASS is so I'm going to try that pixelpoet Kontact hack to see if I can improve the legato LOL

The only thing usable in MSS for me are the shorts... I hope I can get them to work in a track, otherwise my $549 will be down the drain. As for me, no amount of editing or massaging will help me like the core tone any better

I cannot believe that MSS legato is behind LASS legato, but I am hearing that in all material I´ve heard online

Pablo Crespo wrote: ↑Feb 19, 2021 5:22 pm I cannot believe that MSS legato is behind LASS legato, but I am hearing that in all material I´ve heard online

Me neither.

I'm very confident in their skills, and love LASS. But, on the other hand, the Native Instruments Strings aren't famous for their legato either. Don't know ...

As I said in VI, I want to like it so much, but not hearing anything I like regarding simple melodies, is it like MSB that the lack of great walkthroughs made people walk away and never come back?

Pablo Crespo wrote: ↑Feb 20, 2021 3:39 pm As I said in VI, I want to like it so much, but not hearing anything I like regarding simple melodies, is it like MSB that the lack of great walkthroughs made people walk away and never come back?

For wonderful sounding lyrical, emotive Strings Library, that also offers divisi, sordinos, and smooth as silk Legatos, I would recommend Stezov-Sampling Afflatus Strings.

NI Symphony Series Strings (Audiobro's previous joint library with NI that also does divisi and auto-divisi) was also known for a bit colorless sound, and legato transition wasn't very pronounced (not much transition can be heard in full, a little more exposed in divisi section) but IMHO still sounded a lot better and swellful by default than what I hear so far with MSS.

But I'm not sure MSS legato transition samples themselves are bad. It feels like a little over the top/in-your-face by default, but you can turn the transition layers volume down, and first chairs/solo strings sounded pretty good.

I think lack of swell, color and motion that coming from the player performance being too precise is a far bigger problem. Though, MSS could be a godsend in flip, if one is frustrated with involuntary slurred attack/auto-baked swell in sustains that comes with most strings libraries, looking for exact precise arcos and marcatos.

A few things one could do with barebone samples to add some motion is to place an EQ/filter automation (that tied to MW or vel for shorts) in Kontakt, like some of OT, Spitfire or even the good old GPO do, to fake some more dynamic range or roominess on lower dynamics. You can also add some random color by neighborhood faked RR.

Unfortunately exact preciseness is not I'm after right now as I found it is way too much work/distraction when writing, even though I really love tinkering with patches.

This seems very much like the situation with MSB. These libraries should be great on paper but the sound just doesn't grab me as much as it should.

Stakk wrote: ↑Feb 20, 2021 8:56 pmI think lack of swell, color and motion that coming from the player performance being too precise is a far bigger problem. Though, MSS could be a godsend in flip, if one is frustrated with involuntary slurred attack/auto-baked swell in sustains that comes with most strings libraries, looking for exact precise arcos and marcatos.

This is such a good point. There's a section is a piece I've done which suffers from this. I can't remember which library I was using now, probably Sable, and it sounds terrific except for this one short stretch and there was no amount of programming that could fix it (at least by me) because of that baked-in arc that was working against me. Everything is a trade off, isn't it? I always have a feeling that people are waiting for The One, the library that can be The Definitive strings / brass / ocarina library.

In my less romantic moods, I say that finding a life-partner is basically a search for a set of faults you can live with. I'm beginning to think this logic applies to everything. To read some of the comments here, one could easily conclude that MSS is a worthless sterile block of granite. Then I listen to the opening of the legato video and think it sounds terrific. Ironically this reminds me of LASS, and Colin o'Malley's legendary demo that stood forever as the counter-argument to those who said it was cold and harsh. With no disrespect to anyone's negative experience of MSS - and knowing I have zero first-hand experience myself - I feel there might be at least a little rush to judgement here.

Guy Rowland wrote: ↑Feb 21, 2021 3:13 am

Stakk wrote: ↑Feb 20, 2021 8:56 pmI think lack of swell, color and motion that coming from the player performance being too precise is a far bigger problem. Though, MSS could be a godsend in flip, if one is frustrated with involuntary slurred attack/auto-baked swell in sustains that comes with most strings libraries, looking for exact precise arcos and marcatos.

This is such a good point. There's a section is a piece I've done which suffers from this. I can't remember which library I was using now, probably Sable, and it sounds terrific except for this one short stretch and there was no amount of programming that could fix it (at least by me) because of that baked-in arc that was working against me. Everything is a trade off, isn't it?

+1000!
I always “print to tape” and cut/align/eq/animate etc the performance.
Nothing different than working with live musicians.
Really envy those who can get a good performance/mix from MIDI alone.
Best,
/Anders

vi-control dead at the time of writing.

A few weeks ago we've been proposed to sample an orchestra. The project wasn't anything revolutionary, in my opinion, and the main goal was to do a library to rule them all with a competitive price. We've kindly rejected the idea. An idea which would have been a dream for us a few years ago.
My point is that unfortunately we are at a point where a new "pure orchestral" library can just add up to something that's already been done dozen of times and the risk of messing up something in the process is really high. One example: we are very proud of Venice Modern Strings, it has a lovely sound, the legato is nice, but the shorts are a step back compared to other offerings. We can't even fix that at the moment because we don't have access to the place we've sampled Venice.
I don't think that the problems you find in this library are due to some sort of decision. They may be the byproduct of the complexity of this kind of project. The more the samples, the more the potential issues later and inconsistences. Once something is sampled you have to deal with what you have and use script magic and wise editing to squeeze the best out of what you've sampled. In this regard I admire the complexity and the possibilities offered by their engine. Also I think that the ostinato thing is a nice innovative idea.

Whoa, first post in a while! Refreshing to visit the calm wisdom of SoundBoard . Just a small housekeeping favor...the title of this thread may be more clear with "aka LASS 3" removed as MSS is not actually LASS 3, which is a forthcoming, separate product.

I took MSS out for a spin with my divisi test - the Psycho prelude. Please note:

• This is entered from the score, not performed per se. The purpose is to explore libraries, not win at mockups.

• There is no mixing, no fader moves, no CC11 expression, all levels come from dynamics.

• There are no effects (other than the ambience per track described below).

• All the internal EQs are off. All the internal reverbs/IRs/effects are off.

• Auto-divisi is off (separate section instruments were used).

• The Mix mic is not used.

First up we have the "raw" mix. This is only MSS. Stage and Surround mics at 0db, Close at -6db. No reverb of any kind:

Psycho MSS Raw

Next we have a version with some Altiverb's Teldex. This uses just Close and Stage, both at 0db, sending only Close to Altiverb:

Psycho MSS Teldex (wav)

Finally we have the same Close and Stage config, but going to EW Spaces II with the Davies concert hall preset:

Psycho MSS Davies (wav)

I found the library straightforward to use, and was able to customize the keyswitching, outputs etc easily. Sampling-wise I wished for a VSL-like performance trill patch for those signature turns in this piece. Admittedly it's a challenge for sample libs even with p.trills or fast legato. I also pined for proper sforzato patches (I ended up faking it).

I love the direct sound. It handled the divisi with aplomb, of course, even without auto-divisi. I had already built these tracks with a split track approach, and probably would continue to do so rather than use auto-divisi. I think the "just a bit wet" strategy is a real winner from a flexibility standpoint.

richhickey - your mockup sounds pretty good especially with custom reverb. Audiobro clearly knows how to record with very low noise floor (especially after Genesis, which is unbeliveably noise-free for a choir library) which can be a big plus in aggressive tracks like that, but not with romantic/classical context. Did you try layering MSS soloists on top of ensemble/divisi?

paoling - I have a huge respect for your libraries programming/recording approach and I share the view that "THE library" might not be possible at all, given that context matters so much.

Even though libraries with bone-dry approach like MSS are far more flexible than baked-in performance libraries like Spitfire Chamber Strings (which I really love the sound and its approach) or Soaring Strings, they tend to be received not so well at the least initially. They also require a lot of time, and way too much for commercial composers, to work with, and can easily go wrong/fake-sounding.

I think "the sound" we talk about can be roughly split into two parts, the tone and the player performance. Tone can be mostly fixed and merged with other recordings if similar mic perspectives are provided or wet release trails can be disabled, this is mostly easy with strings (woodwinds are the most troublesome, larger percussions often impossible) but you can't fix how the technique is played like - more like you can't do anything with it other than: messing with sample starting point, layering other attacks, pitching the crossfade, slightly stretching, or borrowing/stitching neighbor samples

So you can't really make romantic-progressive vibrato portatos into non-vibrato "accordion" sustains or poco vibrato sustains, or pitch perfect ensemble arco a slightly pitchy detuny ensemble, and vice versa. But why do you want in the first place? It's far easier when the libraries design context is aligned with my needs because I don't need to tell bewildered virtual violinists their playing style sucks and do what I want. So, I bet demand for new libraries will never end, because style changes (remember, things always get technically better over time, especially workflow) - but context-free all-around holy grail may never come for the same reason.

I still wish all strings libraries will provide a few pre-recorded arcs/portatos/swells of different lengths like VSL, OT or 8Dio do, especially when sustains are a bit too perfect.

Stakk wrote: ↑Feb 22, 2021 1:36 am Did you try layering MSS soloists on top of ensemble/divisi?

I haven't even loaded the soloists yet.

AudioBro will be updating MSS before the Loyalty Pricing period ends. I think it's March 15th, or 16th. They posted this on VI-C.

I wonder what the update will offer as far as improvements to legato, and possibly other details of the library.

I decided to pass on MSS, and wait for LASS 3, but if the update performs some magic, I might re-consider, and look again into MSS. Although, I'm really looking forward to the upcoming Sonokinetic Strings Library.

That's a pity Paolo! I can only assume how daunting a task that would be. And one might question what the point is in adding yet another orchestral samples lineup. There's probably a dozen around already to choose from. I do get that. And yet, in my mind, each of these offerings adds something unique.
You might compare it to recording cycles of the Beethoven Symphonies. Do we really need new ones among the hundreds that already exist? I would say yes. Our understanding of Beethoven's music evolves gradually. Every generation has their own reading of the music, and thus wants their own recordings.
With orchestral sample libraries there is something comparable in my opinion. Each and every developer has their own unique approach. Not only to recording/engineering/mixing, but also to programming and sampling in general. And while there is the inevitable overlap with what's already on the market, I find that all libraries have their own unique dna that differentiates them from the others.

So yeah, I for one would have loved to hear a full Fluffy Audio orchestral lineup. But I do also adore your more creative and boutique take on what libraries to create.

Muziksculp wrote: ↑Feb 22, 2021 11:53 am AudioBro will be updating MSS before the Loyalty Pricing period ends. I think it's March 15th, or 16th. They posted this on VI-C.

I wonder what the update will offer as far as improvements to legato, and possibly other details of the library.

I decided to pass on MSS, and wait for LASS 3, but if the update performs some magic, I might re-consider, and look again into MSS. Although, I'm really looking forward to the upcoming Sonokinetic Strings Library.

Yep, I'm interested to see what they can pull off with an update. I don't care as I just deleted the library from my hard drive... I can't even find use for the shorts. I tried and tried and tried and just do not like the sound of the core samples so no amount of scripting will help it for me.

I've got a really good feeling about the Sonokinetic strings

Chapbot wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2021 5:52 pm

Muziksculp wrote: ↑Feb 22, 2021 11:53 am AudioBro will be updating MSS before the Loyalty Pricing period ends. I think it's March 15th, or 16th. They posted this on VI-C.

I wonder what the update will offer as far as improvements to legato, and possibly other details of the library.

I decided to pass on MSS, and wait for LASS 3, but if the update performs some magic, I might re-consider, and look again into MSS. Although, I'm really looking forward to the upcoming Sonokinetic Strings Library.

Yep, I'm interested to see what they can pull off with an update. I don't care as I just deleted the library from my hard drive... I can't even find use for the shorts. I tried and tried and tried and just do not like the sound of the core samples so no amount of scripting will help it for me.

I've got a really good feeling about the Sonokinetic strings

I decided to pass on AudioBro's MSS, and it's Legato Expansion, even if the update improves some things. I will see what LASS 3 will offer when it is released towards the end of this year.

Yes, I'm also looking forward to the upcoming Sonokinetic Strings Library due in April.

1.1 update is now available. Looking good.
https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-str ... ase-notes/

Thanks Morendo. Here's the video - the most important changes are the molto, new bloom mode and legato tweaks, which start around 4'10



This particularly addresses that perceived lack of natural swell and emotion with the bloom mode. Being Audiobro, you get infinite control of how much the volume is shaped, so you can just have a purely vibrato-based swell.

Jeepers there's an awful lot of controls now. For many of the detailed controls I guess they can be left in Auto mode at least. I'm still highly unlikely to buy this (or any other string library for that matter), but I do like the look and sound of it overall.