The Sound Board

(just an open thought to Matt - one of most unwelcome surprises about this release is that there are zero hybrid piano / synth patches, when it cries out for them. Of course you'll need Omni as well, but I think it's highly likely that most Keyscape owners also have that too. You can see where I'm going with this - cries out for a dedicated Hybrid Keyscape library, doesn't it? It'll be quite a gap in the market there...)

I think many here are forgetting how long it can take to collect and restore this many instruments- 10 years is not that long, especially if you are reworking/ refitting pieces to make them perform optimally. I'm sure the software part of it was not the major part of that time.

Second, the organs will probably be a separate product ("Organscape"?) since it is a huge category in itself. I do think that Eric is trying to do justice to each instrument, getting them sampled in the best possible condition, so he never has to do it again.

Third, Omni offers a huge amount of possiblities for creation when adding all these high quality soundsources, it could bring patches that we've never heard before. I'm excited to see what some (and by some, I mean Matt) will bring to the Omni table.

Four. Although $400 is high and I don't need this, I'll probably end up getting it because their stuff sounds so good it will probably put my soniccouture EP's to shame (which puts all the other EP's I have to shame).

But why so many Toy pianos? Why are sample companies obsessed with these things? Do they know they are toys meant for kids? A bosendorfer and Stienway added to the C7 would have been better than Toy pianos. But then again, I guess there are already many great piano collections out there.

And it was as I predicted- at first I said "What?" And then "don't need it". Then I watched the video and am changing my mind as the minutes go by. Eventually everyone forgets the release day stumbles and focuses on the sounds, which are pretty fantastic.

I would've voted for guitars given the chance. I would enjoy three things from Spectrasonics: Something rhythmic oriented, a massive guitar collection with several differing technologies/playing techniques and a severely updated RMX.

Being left with Keyscape (more appropriately Pianoscape) I do agree with all the prescient comments from Matt and Guy on eDNA/STEAM equivalencies and differences regarding the birth and direction of it.

This product would have been better placed if it was released after eight years instead of ten. It's at least two years too late to be considered ground breaking. Too many good keys products have been delivered recently that take the 'steam' out of this release. Of course, Spectrasonics is an incredible franchise and this should add to it - though marginally.

Omnisphere is greatly lacking in new sound sources so this should at least help a bit. Keyscape should help Matt and Skippy develop some wonderful preset content. Omni would see little use here without those two independent developers.

It does however bring to mind the question, 'Is Spectrasonics getting old, conceptually?' This despite its evident high quality level, vast user base and customer commitment.

We've seen a lot of creative types move from the likes of Pro Tools to things like Live. Figuratively, has Spectrsonics become Pro Tools?

.

Jack Weaver wrote:It does however bring to mind the question, 'Is Spectrasonics getting old, conceptually?' This despite its evident high quality level, vast user base and customer commitment.

Very interesting question. Maybe part of the problem is that Spectrasonics means different things to different people. For many, it's RMX and Omnisphere, EDM etc. But if you look at a lot of the videos on their own site, more often than not its using their products as conventional instruments by very talented musicians.

There's not always a neat crossover either. I don't know how large the samples for one of the C7 patches is.... 4GB, say? Now, if you want that tone for mangling / sound design purposes, that's completely OTT. That crowd really don't necesarily need 32 velocity layers etc (though that said perhaps it will make for more dynamic playable hybrid instruments).

What's intriguing me about Keyscape though is their conscious decision not to go down the hybrid road in the standalone version. That's reducing value, not adding to it. I can only presume they've decided that the model for them going forward is to have Player instruments, then use Omni for the clever stuff. That's all well and good, but unless they release 500 patches for Omni and Keyscape combined - and there's no indication that they will do so - they seem to be missing not only their release date, but their own trick.

I dunno. I'm still very enthusiastic about them as a company, and the sheer noise generated by this release is an indication of the esteem with which they are held. But given the relatively rapid development of both Stylus and Omni in the previous decade, plus the quick introduction of Trilian, I do wonder if they've lost some internal focus when you compare with the last 5 years. My thoughts - good as well as bad - on Omni 2 are well known to the point of tedium, but I'm still shocked that some of the major problems obvious to me on Day 1 have still not been addressed. Then Keyscape - very high quality, but seemingly of reduced scope sonically.

Are they getting old conceptually? I do hope not, but I think that now there's some cause for concern. Their glacial pace of development is ill-suited to this industry. But on the other hand, despite what seems like centuries of no action on Stylus in particular, not a single other developer has come close to matching its functionality and usability. Nobody is rushing into that particular vacuum. That's where Omni 2 has made me nervous though - I used to believe that even if you had to wait years, it would pop our damn near fully formed and perfect. I'm not sure that Apple-like attention to every detail to make for a great user experience is there any more. Still very good, but they were always better than that.

Eric seems to have the money to move at the pace he wants to move. And because of that some others may pick up his torch (especially in the Stylus/percussion area) but perhaps the era of libraries trying to be all encompassing is coming to an end. East West, Spectrasonics, even Impact Soundworks try to make giant libraries encompassing many instruments at once, where I'm heading more torward handpicking instruments that can really add something to the music I want to do, without the 500 extra patches. Thanks to the star system in Omni I've found I really like and use about 10 percent of it's sounds, the rest collect dust. Reminds me of the days cable package great TV channels with bad ones so we had little choice, and now most people stream just what they want.

Good news for small independent developers who want to specialize, bad news for larger developers that want a price gateway and an all or nothing sales approach. Why else would Heavyocity start selling separate metal and wood ensembles? Or low price instruments such as Vocalise (no need for gravity) then sell it at $30 off? More people jump in when they can afford to buy the part they want, then if they start to love it they may buy more and get to the $400 anyway. I know I've spent much more than that at Soniccouture and still don't have all the keys Eric has listed in this, but all the SC stuff I use, not so sure this will be the same.

Interesting X-bassist - I'm quite the opposite in almost every regard. I guess the main reason is that I might want to do anything at a moment's notice. I'd rather have broad brushes, but good broad brushes. Similarly I never use the star rating system at all - what I might like searching for something one day, I might hate the next. More to the point, sometimes I'm searching for a particular quality that I know I can then edit and adapt for my specific needs. So a patch that I might not like on its own, might just be what I need tomorrow. I can't imagine throwing away 90% - it's very rare for me to hear a patch and think "that's just crap". Not true with many other synths, mind.

And I dunno about a trend to smaller either. With orchestral, I think everyone is up against East West Hollywood Orchestra. Especially when you're at an early stage, it's not so much use owning just flutes, clarinets and trombones - you need the whole lot (but conversely, there might be a few specifics in the big sets you don't like, so then you might cherry pick some BML, VSL, Embertone, VIR etc). A media composer in particular needs pretty much everything. And that does suit Spectrasonics - I've always said that the very concept of Omnisphere is right there in the name - Omni, everything. If you only do EDM, much of it will be a waste. If you only want textures, ditto. The broader your needs, the more value you get out of it. Likewise you'd probably still go to Pianoteq if you wanted the ultimate grand piano and had no interest in any electrics or toys, if you can use the lot Keyscape makes a lot more sense.

(Caveat - obviously I'm talking about high quality collections, not cheap crap with 1,000s of instruments).

Jack Weaver wrote:(...) to be considered ground breaking (...)

Not quite with you this time, Jack. ‘Groundbreaking’ isn’t a musical quality, good sound is. (Today’s ‘groundbreaking’ is tomorrow’s ‘passé’ anyway, good sound however lasts. That’s also the reason why Trilian never ages. And why the processed sound of StylusRMX has. Another ten years from now, and Keyscape will still sound as good as it does today, its value as a musical instrument having decreased not one bit.
(That’s what I like most about Spectrasonics: the quality they deal in, RMX core library excepted, is long-term stuff. Not ‘hype of the month’ dressings, like all too many developers go for.)

What I’m hearing in that video sounds significantly better than *anything* I’ve ever heard coming out of Kontakt. And I’m not talking about the accuracy of the timbres — though they’re seriously impressive too, I find — I’m talking about the sound quality. Noticeably superior to most anything else I have experience with in this area. What comes out of Kontakt, or Arturia, is like VHS, compared to the Blueray-definition that Spectrasonics’ audio engine is capable of generating. A difference which may not matter to the average DAW-user (and I’m not suggesting that it should), but which will definitely matter to a professional, dedicated and discerning keyboard player.

Which brings me to this: I very much doubt if Keyscape was developed with the memberships of V.I.-C or The Sound Board, or any other congregation of DAW-focused musicians (many of which have no keyboard skills to speak of, and who hardly care for all the subtleties that make up the difference between an average Rhodes-emulation and a really good one), in mind.

But some people *do* care. Some people *do* hear (and appreciate) that, with Keyscape, a new standard of ‘virtual keyboards’-quality is achieved.

The way it looks to me: Keyscape is a professional product for the professional. Solid software (*), superior audio quality, amazing accuracy in its captured detail and timbres, and bringing together a wide-ranging, versatile collection of keyboards which any serious player simply loves to get his/her hands on.
(The toy piano motif is perhaps a bit overstressed, yes, but I’m assuming — based on the many patches in Omnisphere which point to a preference of Mr. Persing for bell-like sounds — that some of them were included for blending purposes mostly.)

(*) Another important argument that shouldn’t be overlooked: the software. I’d feel much safer, and I’m sure I’m not alone, to go on the road (or into the studio) with Spectrasonics-software than with anything from, say, Native instruments, EastWest, Arturia or UVI.

- - -

Guy, you say that sampling piano’s is easy? I’m afraid I have to disagree with that as well. Piano’s, like all acoustic instruments, are unsampleable. As all the existing libraries prove only too painfully. Sure, we can get enthusiastic about some of them, and to provide some superficial semblance of a piano being present in a mix, most good libraries are perfectly adequate, but there is not a single virtual piano available today that I would ever want to do a solo recording with. Too one-sided, too flat, too artificial, too dead, … the lot of them. Even the best libraries can only do, say, 10%-15% of what a real piano can do. Average libraries (the majority of what’s out there) manage maybe 3%. And modeled instruments do a little better with some aspects of piano emulation, but are noticeable worse with several others, so until that technology takes a few more giant strides, that’s no option either today.
If the circumstances necessitate a virtual solution, and you want or need a truly believable, great sounding grand piano, there is *nothing* available at the moment. Nothing.
Believe me, spend an afternoon with a good, real piano in a piano-sympathetic environment, and you will never say or even think again that these instruments are easy to sample.

- - -

Anyway, back to Keyscape: I am extremely impressed. It scores on all the fronts where I want a virtual instrument to score. And considering all that it contains — provided that one values what it contains, of course —, I find the price amazingly low as well. I like it. I'm going to buy it. And I'm going to enjoy it very, very, very much.

_

Pretty much agree with everything you have said there Piet.

The electric pianos in particular among other keyboard instruments sound at first glance, superior to anything I own. Even the keyboards with an attitude in their sound have a certain clarity and warmth that is missing in other competing VI's.

I particularly enjoyed the softer parts being played as well. It seems, that the sampling is very detailed.

Omnisphere has a certain concept with its sounds. Though, there are many options, often many samples seem little lacking in low mids and with too much high frequency content.

But, over here I think Spectrasonics have abandoned that approach and gone with a fresh (rightfully) approach to sampling these instruments to a very high quality. Naturally, new instruments need different recording techniques. But, to my ears it sounds miles better than any other EP or keyboard type instrument they have in their own current Omni library.

I will definitely be getting this library.

My only complaint is that they included just one piano. I really hope they will do another one in the future but perhaps with several options of perspectives already included in this, it may not be necessary immediately.

The sound quality what I am hearing in my studio is top-notch and full. Rarely heard in even some of the best sample libraries. I am not a great keyboard player but even I need playable keyboard patches of high quality.

As for marketing and sales, this product will do very well as it is geared at many different musicians. Think about touring musicians. Omni is extremely stable. I saw a concert in London of Herbie Hancock. He had 8 Omni's running via iPad flawlessly. He was using so many different things on stage.

And I suspect, this will come in handy for so many musicians around the world who need to perform but may not always have access to the best instruments. And this is a huge sales area. Just plug your laptop with a controller and off you go.

Of course, in the studio and in music production it has huge applications. Whereas, we have painfully used samples in the past, this may bring about a change when the right instruments are not available. Perhaps, music producers will not always need access to high quality current or vintage instruments when they are difficult to get hold of.

But, need another piano please!

I thought you might like Keyscape, Piet - seems very geared to your ethos. I guess until its under your fingers you can't be totally sure, but truly it's great to read such an enthusiastic response from someone of your skill. On the quality - I was thinking about this today. I think there are two things that I broadly notice about Spectrasonics aside from the oft-commented sheen, one specific to their presentations and the other to their actual products. Videos - they always, ALWAYS mix the music much louder than the speech. Far more so than anyone else. A cheap trick possibly, but boy it works. But the second - where I notice a true different quality-wise seems especially in the bass. I think even when extreme sample-stretching, there's an incredible smoothness and richness that is retained, it never gets grainy or boomy or have wild resonances or is flat. I don't know if the rest of what I think I might perceive is placebo.

Pianos easy? Yes yes yes. I think you're using hyperbole on that 10-15% figure, even on the most exposed and intricate stuff I'd put it higher than that. For the good libraries, in mix, way way waaaay higher. Now my ears are surely not as attuned as those as a fine pianist, but I argue that anything played with keys is, pretty much by definition, easier to sample than something played differently where its ultimately played back with keys. You play me any - ANY - guitar VI where a top open E is held, and the B string glides through D, E, F#. To my knowledge it simply cannot be attempted in one pass, let alone done well. And it's the easiest thing in the world to play on an actual guitar. So we can't even grade that - it's a zero. If 15% is best-case for piano, where do we put ensemble big band brass? On that scale, I'd put it at 0.001%. Any (typically) monophonic instrument is easier than poly (or ensemble) when it is not keys-based, but even there I'd argue the inherent differences in how the notes are generated are always more problematic for sampling.

Tanuj - one piano. It is hard to believe it's just one piano isn't it? I don't mean "why didn't they do more", I mean the variety of tones they got out of just the one piano is quite extraordinary. I wouldn't have believed it, honestly. I guess they're changing the hammers and strings and all sorts. So all though yes, just the one is an odd choice, this one will go a lot further than anyone else's one, I'll wager.

I was thinking of getting a Nord Electro. Not anymore...

givemenoughrope wrote:I was thinking of getting a Nord Electro. Not anymore...

Ooh ooh, tell me more. I raised this earlier on KVR. Quality wise at what it does, Keyscape surely has Nord down. But two things I figured were real issues - 1, you're dependent on software on a computer, and need to host it in something, all of which more hardware and configuring software and is a faff and 2) the Nord covers much more sonic ground. Genuinely keen to hear how you think it will work for you workflow-wise.

Guy Rowland wrote:Good news #1 - the Greene family get to eat still!

Good news indeed, although I could probably stand to eat a little less.

My main fear of Spectrasonics doing a vocal library wasn't so much financial, though. It's more of an ego thing, because I've poured a lot of study and time into a new methodology, which, if it works as it should, will be pretty impressive. If Spectrasonics had beaten me to the punch, it would have been very deflating.

I totally get Keyscape, by the way. I think it's going to be a big success for Eric, but more than that, I think it was a passion for him where he could indulge himself in collecting and restoring vintage keys. I collect keyboards myself and have a Cembalet right next to me here that I'm rebuilding. It's addicting.

Guy Rowland wrote:(...) I think you're using hyperbole on that 10-15% figure (...)

I think you’ll find I’m not. If I allow to let the milk of human kindness to flow through my veins, I might be prepared to go maybe as high as 20%, but deep-down, I actually feel, and I’m dead serious, that 10% is already too forgiving an estimation.

Again: have tantric sex with a good piano, and you’ll know how unvirtualizable the piano's contribution is.

_

Of course, there is no comparison with a real piano. Playing a real piano can never be surpassed by virtual instruments. It is after all, a matter of physics.

However, what we need as musicians, producers and programmers is a virtual instrument that can be made to sound like a well recorded piano.

The problem is two-fold. One, that either a piano is sampled as neutral as possible and second that it is sampled with a point of view. Both carry huge limitations with them. A neutral piano is in more or less in a mechanical life-less state. There is something about bringing the piano to life when played by a real person. It works for some reasons and fails in others. A piano with a POV has serious problems too because it has been already set in stone. I am not sure what the way forward is.

It is all about the best compromise.

But, beyond the sound and programming, a solo instrument specially like a piano needs to be playable. That is forever bound with the musicality and performance. The two are not easy to achieve in a single instrument.

What I really liked about Keyscape is that it still held a life like impression on repeated notes, softer notes and from bottom to the top. This is no joke. It is really good sampling. The second performance by Cory Henry is most revealing for me. The dynamics, pedaling and life-like sound in the top register is in itself a great achievement. Even notes played with much emphasis sounded quite good to my ears.

Sure, other pianos offer repetition and many velocities but to have a demonstration by Cory Henry and so many others and the instruments still holding up, it says a lot.

Cory was playing very close harmonies and there was no muffling of sound, no ringing, no build up. It sounded like a really well recorded piano. These were acid tests for the instruments. Most of us are unlikely to be able to play like that with such swiftness, dense as well as spread out harmonies, every-changing in a most musical manner.

Piet, remember that piece you did where I thought the piano could be better? May be, Keyscape is the answer!

I would imagine that sampling a piano is not a simple job. So many have tried and failed. Guitar does seem a really, really hard one to do but it does not take away from the fact that a really nice playable piano sample library is not easy to create either.

I agree that it sounds very good in general, but listen closely to the piano demos. I hear something wrong with the release. It's very very subtle, but it sounds like it cuts off unnaturally, almost like voice stealing.

Guy, it is perhaps easier to get to a good end-result in a piano sample library. I can understand that. The sampling and playback is pretty much the same. We are recording samples from a keyboard and playing it back on a keyboard.

You are not going to be able to do anything on the keyboard that a real piano cannot do. So, we are approaching it in a very logical way.

On the other hand, with so many other instruments like guitar and strings, this is simply not the case. And I think, this may be a problem.

Likewise, percussion works so well. You hit it with varying intensities. That is the basic function. Where to hit on the drum to get the best sound is already taken care of by a player. But, a percussion instrument can still be simulated by hitting keys or on drum pads etc.

Lawrence wrote:I agree that it sounds very good in general, but listen closely to the piano demos. I hear something wrong with the release. It's very very subtle, but it sounds like it cuts off unnaturally, almost like voice stealing.

Larry, I think I know which part you are talking about. Was it not in the Cory Henry performance? I think it sounded natural to me. Like a really close mic response. It did sound like a really up-close perspective. I do feel like I have heard such effects in recordings when the piano was captured very up-close.

But, I will have another listen to pick up on that.

Guy Rowland wrote: Ooh ooh, tell me more.

Yes, it's a risk playing thru a laptop live. I don't play live that much but I would if I had a Nord...but I doubt I'd use the Nord on library tracks, etc. whereas Keyscape would be all over them of course. I think the setup in the video (good, light controller, laptop with a duel or something) would be ideal. The last gig I played was basically Wurlie 200a samples, some Mellotron flutes and strings and the odd harp pluck and roll. If Keyscape sounds good with the direct patches reamped into a Fender or a Leslie or even just a keyboard amp then i think it's a done deal.

This isn't a "gotta have it" instrument for me, even though piano is my main instrument. ( could've used the Tack piano on my last project).

But I do appreciate Eric's attention to detail and I'm sure this is the best at what it does. And I'm betting Matt will have some interesting patches

I'll get this eventually. I wonder if they'll offer a VIP price like Omni 2?

Tanuj Tiku wrote:

Lawrence wrote:I agree that it sounds very good in general, but listen closely to the piano demos. I hear something wrong with the release. It's very very subtle, but it sounds like it cuts off unnaturally, almost like voice stealing.

Larry, I think I know which part you are talking about. Was it not in the Cory Henry performance? I think it sounded natural to me. Like a really close mic response. It did sound like a really up-close perspective. I do feel like I have heard such effects in recordings when the piano was captured very up-close.

But, I will have another listen to pick up on that.

Hi Tanuj-I disremember where I heard it, but it caught me up, so I listened closely and heard it a few more times. I'll go back to the video and see if I can isolate it.

Does anybody know, if continuous pedal is supported for the Yamaha C7? Listening to the classical bits from the video, it seems to me like, it is not ...

I've been reading everyone's views with a great deal of interest. I haven't got any piano preferences--yet. What do you think would be the advantages of diving in with Keyscapes?
Patrick

me thusala wrote:I've been reading everyone's views with a great deal of interest. I haven't got any piano preferences--yet. What do you think would be the advantages of diving in with Keyscapes?
Patrick

Lots of very good sounding pianos and various keyboards organized in one place with a superior processing engine.

Kayle you probably know this by now but the answer is no loyalty discounts.

Scoredog wrote:...

Kayle you probably know this by now but the answer is no loyalty discounts.

Thanks Craig. I didn't see anything about a discount so I figured that was the case. Just as well. Less temptation.

kpc wrote:

Scoredog wrote:...

Kayle you probably know this by now but the answer is no loyalty discounts.

Thanks Craig. I didn't see anything about a discount so I figured that was the case. Just as well. Less temptation.

Totally agree. In the future if i need some good piano, maybe i jump into this, but i doub, there is no reason to jump now. Keyscapes... great presentation, bad marketing.