What are ABBA doing with the electric piano here?

[Guy Rowland]

Okay people. Verse 1 here.



The electric piano - a Wurli, is it? - sounds INCREDIBLE. It's either swimming in reverb / echo and then through a phaser, OR they're layering it with something. What's going on?

[Lawrence]

Sounds phased to me.

I didn’t know the song but it continued to remind me how resolved suspensions in vocals are so very pleasing to the ear.

Also, it reminded me of the first Boston album in that it doesn’t matter how insipid a lyric is, if a song is well constructed, well sung and played AND amazingly mixed, it’s a beyootiful thing.

[Piet De Ridder]

ABBA overdubbed/doubled/tripled just about everything they recorded (often at slighty different speeds) and with all the processing that’s going on, it’s impossible to say with any certainty which instruments combine into that electric piano sound. Some sources say it’s a Rhodes, but it could be Wurlitzer and there might well be an acoustic piano in there as well. Or maybe even a synth. I have no idea.

And yes, there’s definitely a phaser involved, but not any old phaser will do. Apparently, Bjorn, Benny and their engineer Michael Tretow were, like many musicians in the early and mid-70’s, enthusiastic users of the Maestro Phase Shifter, a device, by the way, which was designed and initially built by Tom Oberheim (before he began thinking about synths). But again, I don’t know if this is true.

(I just tried to get a similar sound with only a Rhodes and a stock phaser plug-in, but I didn't get anywhere near it. And neither did it happen with a Wurlitzer and a phaser. As far as the phasing is concerned though, the closest I can get, is with the Arturia Bi-Tron. But it's still not quite the same thing.)

Here’s a link to an old article by Michael Tretow for a 1980 issue of Sound International Magazine. “Knowing Me Knowing You” isn’t mentioned specifically, but there’s still lots of interesting info (for those who find this type of info interesting, that is).

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[Guy Rowland]

Excellent info, Piet. Without doubt Michael Tretow was a genius.

So curiosity got the better of me and I put verse 1 through RX's music rebalance:

Knowing Me, Knowing You verse epiano.mp3

(562.5 KiB) Downloaded 19 times

Now this might be a little deceptive, it could well have thrown some stuff away on this stem. But there's clearly the electric piano swimming in reverb with that glorious phaser and a 12 string acoustic guitar. Maybe some of his double tracking tricks there too. What I can't figure out is if there is also another elec piano accentuating some of the chords, or if this is just keys of the main piano being hit fff, but I'd have thought that would screw up the reverb effect.

Anyway, it's absolutely gorgeous. Have been listening to this song since I was about 8, and I never really noticed it before yesterday. No-one else ever made that stock elec piano sound like that, such an incredible arrangement.

I seem to recall the producer some big haired huge rock band of the 70s/80s - I forget which - sought an audience with Michael to learn how he did it. He was such a master craftsman. I know we've discussed the sublime SOS before - when that chorus hits its just unbelievable.

(minor tangent. I was watching a bit of Raiders of the Los Ark yesterday marvelling at the direction and Harrison Ford's brilliance, and reflecting how it was dismissed as popcorn back in the day, and Ford didn't start any "proper' acting until later in his career. I feel the same about Abba - now the world appreciates the songwriting and the production, but back then it was all just pop pap).

[wst3]

Abba - one of those acts I love to hate, well, not really... the songwriting (lyrics excepted) is great, and the production and performances are off the wall cool. They were a guilty pleasure.

And as with most guilty pleasures, I forgot about them. Haven't listened to them in ages.

And I avoided the musical and movie "Mama MIa" because I knew it was basically a showcase for Abba penned songs. How could that possibly work?

Well I saw it about a month ago at our local high school. I tend to be something of a theatre snob, so I seldom watch high school musicals. Our local high school does a pretty good job though, and there was one young lady who has held the lead in every show since she was a freshman. A previously unheard of accomplishment. She is that good. She has the voice, and the stage presence, and now the acting chops, and she did an amazing job.

But what really surprised / impressed me was how cleverly the songs were woven into a story line. It really is clever!

[Guy Rowland]

Piet, that link isn't working for me, btw - would you mind taking a look?

Nice interview with Michael here.

[Mike Greene]

It doesn't sound like Rhodes or Wurlitzer to me. I'm not hearing acoustic piano, either, even as a doubled sound. Maaayybe there's some doubling going on, but even for producers who love layering, I wouldn't think a part like this would be where you'd want to do that, since layering tends to make things less snappy, and this is a part that you want to be snappy.. I'd be tempted to guess electronic organ (Vox or a Farfisa, not Hammond), but I don't think that's quite right, either.

So I'm thinking ... none of the above. If I had to guess, though, my money's on organ. Or maybe one of those oddball electric pianos, like the RMI, which I don't really know what they sound like. Light phaser, but also a slower sweep of ... something.

[Guy Rowland]

Organ?! Nah!

I swear it's a Wurli. It's basic tone sounds very familiar to me - the 140B in Keyscape sounds like the right jumping off point.

When I have some muck-around time I'm gonna see how close I can get. I have a wild theory that it's 2 passes of the wurli playing the same basic part - the first is quite dynamic playing and fairly clean, the second is a more even velocity and send 100% wet to the reverb/phaser chain. Then add the 12 string acoustic.

Or something.

[Guy Rowland]

Headed for bed but curiosity got the better of me on the way...

Knowing Me Knowing You e piano attempt 1.mp3

(489.28 KiB) Downloaded 17 times

Plenty wrong with it, it's just an is-this-remotely-in-the-right ballpark effort. Two Keyscape Wurli 140Bs. 1 is clean and quite dynamic, the 2nd is flat velocity using the speaker and sent 100% to a chain of the Artuira EMT140 and Bob Clearmountain's Phasis.

The Wurli isn't quite right, it's not bright and sparkly enough even with the tone cranked right up. I also tried the Rhodes mk1 but that was worse.

Not sure I've even got the chords right tbh. Oh well, bed now!

[Lawrence]

Having owned one (much to my chagrin) it sounds a little like some Polymoog patches I put together, at least as one layer.

[Piet De Ridder]

Piet, that link isn't working for me, btw - would you mind taking a look?

You mean the Tretow article? Link works fine here.
But to be sure, I've copied the contents and saved them as a text file.

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[Guy Rowland]

Having owned one (much to my chagrin) it sounds a little like some Polymoog patches I put together, at least as one layer.

Wow, it's funny how we all hear things differently - the wizadry of Mr Tretow. I don't hear any synth at all.

[Guy Rowland]

Piet, that link isn't working for me, btw - would you mind taking a look?

You mean the Tretow article? Link works fine here.
But to be sure, I've copied the contents and saved them as a text file.

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Thank you, got it! I tried the original link on two computer to no avail, so greatly appreciated.

And yes what a treasure trove, some really wild techniques in there. He's funny and wry, too - loved this paragraph: "Next day we start with the instrument overdubs; Björn and Benny are trying to fill up the tracks as fast as the machine will go. That means that there are two empty tracks left at lunchtime, and it's time to reduce the 16 Moog tracks to make room for the vocal track that the record-buyers so urgently demand. No-one's ever interested in leaving tracks open for the vocals, so it usually falls on me to erase one of my 'unnecessary' drum tracks to put the vocals on. Since I'm aware of this, I always put the hi-hat on a separate track, even though I never intend to use it. But it certainly gives me an unselfish image, to 'give up' one of my drum tracks; the effect on the producer is always most pleasing to watch." Oh, and this when he cuts the masters - "It's the last chance you've got to correct your miss-takes, and to even out the differences between the mixes you've made in the middle of the night by taking off some 15dB of treble".

Interesting to read he shared Peter Garbriel's hatred of cymbals at the exact same point in history. Drum overheads on the floor! And on the one hand he says he never uses compression on the drums, then describes how, at mix stage, he throws the bass, drums and percussion into UAD LN 176 limiters and returns them onto the desk, a "very important part of the ABBA sound".

[Guy Rowland]

It's my birthday, so I have awarded myself a day off to indulge in various ways, and this is one of them. version 2:

Knowing Me Knowing You e piano attempt 2.mp3

(493.79 KiB) Downloaded 16 times

Added the double tracked 12 string acoustic. Changed the chords - guitar is D Em Bm F#m, the elec piano is the same except inversions and it is an Am at the end.

EDIT - to compare with the extracted stem of the original

Knowing Me, Knowing You verse epiano.mp3

(562.5 KiB) Downloaded 16 times

Something still not right with those piano inversions, I've gone too high now...

EDIT 2 - perhaps a little closer. I lowered the inversion on the dry e piano and kept the original for the reverby wash. Not impossible maverick Michael Tretow would do something like this. I do a similar trick on vocals sometimes, put an octave high version through a reverb (or an octave low for a different effect)

Knowing Me Knowing You e piano attempt 3.mp3

(495.48 KiB) Downloaded 15 times

[Piet De Ridder]

I can't get anywhere close either but I do agree with Guy that underneath all the processing there's gotta be a few layers of electric pianos (and possibly one acoustic). I certainly don't hear an organ. I looked at a few live versions of the song in the hope that one of them would reveal what sort of electric piano is being used, but in none of the concerts they seem interested in getting close to the sound of the recorded version.

At one point, I thought there might be a synth in there as well, either with an LFO-controlling the envelope, set to 8ths at 105bpm (the tempo of the song) or maybe processed with a Tremolo. But that's just another guess.

The reason I did end up making an audio example though -- even if the result is miles removed from what we're discussing -- is because I think we've been focusing too much on phasers. And we should have been looking at flanging, as the dominant effect, instead, I now believe. Both belong to the same family of effects, but there is a big difference between a phaser and a flanger.
If I'm right, and I might be wrong, but if I'm right, the unit being used was probably an MRX Flanger, an effect that often returned on ABBA recordings, and not in the least on their piano tracks.

UA have a plugin that emulates the MRX, but I don't have that one. Audiority also have a modeled MRX (their Flanger117) but I don't have that one either. So I had to use Logic's stock flanger instead. I did use it in Dual Mono though in order to be able to offset the left and right channels and widen the stereo image (the UA MRX has a dual mono mode switch).

Anyway, I think you'll agree, after hearing this example, that a flanger, more than a phaser, is the key to the "Knowing Me Knowing You" sound.

Oh, here's another link to more interesting info. This time from MIXDOWN Magazine.

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EDIT: The happiest of Happy Birthdays, Guy!

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[Guy Rowland]

Nice effort, Piet! What I'd love to hear is a version where you only flange the reverb and no direct - I think that's key to the magical sound here. And actually I'm yet not entirely sure it IS a flanger on the record, but processing it that way might well give a much better idea of that.

They're very liberal with the reverb btw - I saw they often use the EMT 140 and found the basic untreated sound of the Arturia version felt remarkably close to what I hear on the elec piano on the record.

I did find an article on the production of Knowing Me Knowing You - https://abbasite.com/articles/knowing-m ... heartache/ - but it's actually quite light on details. It does confirm the track has an electric piano, but it doesn't say what model.

Thanks for the MIXDOWN link, all fascinating.

[RobS]

I seem to hear the Wurli timbre too... and the sound of the key holding the chords underneath reminds me of the Korg Wavestation. Then again, I see that was released in 1990 so no

[RobS]

oh... happy birthday Guy!

[RobS]

and good examples you both posted... Guy maybe there's a seventh in both Bm and F#m.
These kind of exercises always tend to show how difficult it is for me to mimic the tonal qualities of recordings. For example, I tried to see how close I could get to the drums od the piece, and there's no possibility I can nail that energy in the snare. None of the drum libraries I own has such sharp transients, though maybe with filters one could remedy that. However, thanks for the thread, always interesting for me the see the talk about instrumental timbres and stuff

[Lawrence]

Happy bday, Guy!