iZotope O8N2: Ozone 8 Neutron 2 [12th Oct - upgrade price drop]

[Guy Rowland]

Ozone 8 and Neutron 2 are now released, info and videos on page 2 on October 5, 2017.

I don't think wst3 Bill is gonna like this, but here goes...



So it looks like Ozone and Neutron are going to combine into one mixing / mastering product and add a lot of bells and whistles. Visual mixing, for example, whatever that is exactly (will it have SPAT like features I wonder?). One obvious thing that occurs to me about this - aside from whether or not any of it is of any practical use - you'd need an instance on every channel, if you are going to truly mix through it, and that also makes me question how the routing would work. I'm presuming it'll be a standalone app, with routing to and from.

Neutron is clever stuff, and slowly and surely I'm turning to it for more jobs, more often. I'm a known admirer of iZotope for coming up with new ideas and - often - executing them exceptionally well. I'm not yet sure about this, but there's not too much to go on obviously.

Though as someone on YouTube pointed out regarding the promo - "If you have your monitors as chest level, I don't trust you to master my music". Was that you, Bill?

[mybootsonfire]

Looking forward to seeing exactly what it'll be and how it works. I've been diggin Neutron and always use Ozone on just about everything. Hope there's a good upgrade discount.

[Guy Rowland]

Hmm, I hope that isn't an accurate reflection on how things are here, Anders. Everything and everyone is fair game for praise or criticism as people see it. For me personally as I suggested already, I cut iZotope some slack because they have a track record of genuine innovation. Not every product is a winner though - this one definitely interests me but we wait to see if this is real innovation or more of a gimmick.

[wst3]

I don't think wst3 Bill is gonna like this, but here goes... <snippity>

I guess I have a rep now as an Izoptope basher - fwiw, I'm wearing my Izotope t-shirt today, happened to be at the top of the pile, but it is significant that it has not yet become a paint t-shirt!

I don't dislike Izotope. I don't like all their products, but I think their RX suite is about as close as anyone will get to CEDAR hardware, and the hardware had it's own quirks. It isn't a one-size-fits-all solution, I still use the original Sound Forge NR plugin, and I use Accusonis and Zynaptiq for repairs that RX can't do. If any of these folks could come up with a tool that does everything perfectly I'd switch!

I also think very highly of their Ozone plugins. Their multi-band compressor is the most musical 2-mix compressor I've used. Their EQ is no slouch either, and while it is something of a one-trick pony, their old reverb is also great.

What I object to is their approach to marketing. I think they mislead people when they claim that all you need is software to be a competent mastering engineer. Even their old booklet suggests otherwise, but their ads!

Though as someone on YouTube pointed out regarding the promo - "If you have your monitors as chest level, I don't trust you to master my music". Was that you, Bill?

No it wasn't. Pity I missed that opportunity. I get that you need to sell product to continue development. I get that you need to make the pictures pretty to sell product. But I think their products are good enough to stand on their own, even in a crowded marketplace, and it makes me a little sad that they don't.

[Lawrence]

They're pretty relentless, but they just gave out their Imager for free (I know some don't like that sort of plug but I find it useful) and I got the upgrade from O4 to their O7 Creative Suite (I think that's what it was called) at a very reasonable price, so I have no kick.

[Guy Rowland]

Well, I don’t really see any difference Andres. The Waves thread reaction was pretty negative - “urgh, another sale, products mediocre”, seemed to be the general reaction. Plenty of sampling products get enthusiastic responses, some less so such as the recent Spitifre thread, others get little traction. So I’m still kinda failing to see this, but it concerns me as I don’t like the perception that TSB is soft on some products in general terms, and negative on others. Quite willing to accpet I have blinkers though. Maybe one for continued discussion in Forum Matters?

I haven’t used the Studio 7 from Cedar I don’t think, but used their (older?) hardware units plenty. RX wipes the floor with those, though of course they are real time so not quite apples vs oranges.

[Lawrence]

Guy, I don't think it's a TSB thing as much as an individual thing. Though I think both companies make some fine products, I have a post-VIC Spitfire/8Dio hype hangover, and I think you share the Spitfire part. I'm upfront about it, others can disagree. I guess I haven't watched much Izotope stuff so I'm unaware of their marketing except regarding some recent sales.

We're also going to have some personally favored developers. That's just the way the donut rolls. As long as there's no policy and no commercial interests, I think the goals of TSB are met by complete (civil) freedom of expression.

Anders, you weren't implying that there's some sort of official policy, were you?

[Arcana]

I for one am super excited about Neutron 2.
It's probably the most helpful mixing tool I have at my disposal.
It has opened my eyes in regards to mixing, and shown my issues in my mixes that I never knew existed.

So yeah, they can hype as much as they want as far as I'm concerned.

And I'll take their couple of adverts a year over Spitfire's by-weekly teasers for yet another £500 string library or repackaging of old product.

[wst3]

On the topic of biases, I don't think there are any. I think there are more people who are making purchasing decisions about libraries than there are people making purchasing decisions about plugins or platforms, and that will lead to more posts (pro and con) and more noise with respect to libraries.

I can certainly understand a concern that someone entering here for the first time might perceive one or more biases, but I don't think they are real, and I'm quite sure they can not be controlled.

On the topic of NR tools - that's a deep one, and I'm feeling lazy this morning<G>...

ERA-D seems to be best suited to applications where one needs to get rid of a really complex background, something with excessive reverb and noise. I have a clip I will need to dig up where I had all of about 7 seconds of dialog in a trailer that was otherwise all SFX and music. The production audio was about as awful as it gets. I almost asked the director to cut the last scene from the trailer, although I knew that wouldn't happen. I tried ADR but the actors were not up to the task. I tried RX5, Sony NR, filters, dynamics processors, and burning old tapes in sacrifice.

As I was about to give up hope I stumbled across ERA-D. It just worked. Which is to say it removed the most noise with the fewest artifacts. It took several passes (I don't remember how many), and I'm pretty sure the last pass was either Sony NR or RX5, and then I used Un-Chirp to try to clean up some of the artifacts.

So for me, thus far, the trick(s) to using ERA-D would include:
1) it seems to work best on really complex noise and reverb
2) allow it to treat both at the same time
3) make several passes with just a little treatment (this may be noise signature specific?)
4) don't be afraid to use a second tool for one last pass.

In fact I am starting to believe that some combination of tools (RX, Sony NR, ERA-D) works better than any single tool. I've been fortunate that I have not needed any of these recently, but I (almost) look forward to the next time I do<G>!

And yes, CEDAR is probably worth every penny if one gets enough work to pay for it.

[X-bassist]

So it looks like Ozone and Neutron are going to combine into one mixing / mastering product and add a lot of bells and whistles. Visual mixing, for example, whatever that is exactly (will it have SPAT like features I wonder?). One obvious thing that occurs to me about this - aside from whether or not any of it is of any practical use - you'd need an instance on every channel, if you are going to truly mix through it, and that also makes me question how the routing would work. I'm presuming it'll be a standalone app, with routing to and from.

I really like RX4 and Ozone 5 but my beef with izotope is they keep changing the software every year to charge you more for updates rather than spending that time and research money on new products. Companys like Sountoys or Fabfilter are not constantly updating their products and charging owners a $99 upgrade fee every year. I started with RX3 just a few years ago and would have double my cost if I had kept up with the yearly updates. Perhaps the new features are worth it to some, but didn't neutron just come out around Christmas? Now they are already moving it on and charging people for it?

Alright, enough from me. But adding a plugin to each track combined with iZotope's upgrade policy is what kept me from diving into neutron in the first place. We'll be at O9N4 by this time next year.

[Arcana]

Tried the Neutron thing but not really sure that I like that someone else is coloring my tracks.
My ears, good or bad, are what's gotten me this far.
Like to mix with them and not with someone else or with my eyes.
Guess I'm a dinosaur in that way.

Best,
Anders

Unfortunately they focused too much of their marketing on the 'Assistant' feature, which is merely a gimmick.

The real power of Neutron comes from the masking meter that can identify where your fundamental frequencies for eg. a guitar track are and like wise for a vocal track, and by using dynamic EQ, duck those frequencies out of the guitar track, making your mix less muddy.
The histogram shows you where those two track are clashing.

It's like TrackSpacer on steroids.

This is a good example of what it does.

[Guy Rowland]

Yes, agreed on the "needing every old version on your system" thing which is tiresome. On Neutron, I have found the assistant handy I'll readily confess as a useful starting point suggestion on problematic stuff, and the masking thing is excellent.

In general with updates, it's rather like Komplete - if you update every single time (as I do with RX) then you end up paying a fair bit. If you skip every other one to just the ones you'll get real value from, and / or pounce on one of their deals, they're very good value.

I might have it wrong, but to me companies like Soundtoys and Fab Filter are both wonderful I'm sure, but I only ever seem to see the same kinds of variations on the usual themes. I'm unlikely to get excited about a new compressor or reverb from anyone. My enthusiasm for iZotope, like Zynptiq, is in their innovation.

[Bernard]

I for one am super excited about Neutron 2.
It's probably the most helpful mixing tool I have at my disposal.

Yes I am very interested too. I find Neutron a very useful mixing tool. I bought it on the understanding that they would continue their development.

[wst3]

Tried the Neutron thing but not really sure that I like that someone else is coloring my tracks.
My ears, good or bad, are what's gotten me this far.
Like to mix with them and not with someone else or with my eyes.
Guess I'm a dinosaur in that way.

Could not have said it better, and I guess that makes me a bit of a dinosaur too!

[Arcana]

I might have it wrong, but to me companies like Soundtoys and Fab Filter are both wonderful I'm sure, but I only ever seem to see the same kinds of variations on the usual themes. I'm unlikely to get excited about a new compressor or reverb from anyone. My enthusiasm for iZotope, like Zynptiq, is in their innovation.

Yeah, I think you have it wrong

Certainly, if you have tons of EQ, limiters, reverb etc. you might not need them, but I think Fabfilter's Pro-Q2 (EQ) is generally considered the best on the market. And their limiter is right up there as well. They are not quite as innovative as Izotope but their GUI as second to none IMO. Just check out Dan Worral's videos on YouTube for some instant GAS.
Yes, they are not cheap by a long shot, but you get what you pay for.
Personally, I'd happily use only Fabfilter (and Neutron) for all my mixing. That's not quite the case currently, but that's purely because of the before mentioned price.

Anyway... new teaser from Izotope today.

[Guy Rowland]

I might have it wrong, but to me companies like Soundtoys and Fab Filter are both wonderful I'm sure, but I only ever seem to see the same kinds of variations on the usual themes. I'm unlikely to get excited about a new compressor or reverb from anyone. My enthusiasm for iZotope, like Zynptiq, is in their innovation.

Yeah, I think you have it wrong

Certainly, if you have tons of EQ, limiters, reverb etc. you might not need them, but I think Fabfilter's Pro-Q2 (EQ) is generally considered the best on the market. And their limiter is right up there as well. They are not quite as innovative as Izotope but their GUI as second to none IMO. Just check out Dan Worral's videos on YouTube for some instant GAS.

Huh.... that sounds to me as if I don't have it wrong after all! Wonderful I'm sure, but it's another EQ, another limiter etc. I'm lucky enough to have great EQs and limiters already. Tons of them, actually. I just can't get enthused about another that I know will make an almost imperceptible difference to either my workflow or my output. In the interests of paying dues, I did look at Dan Worral's youtube video for Fab Filter's Pro R. It looks and sounds wonderful, really well designed, but it didn't make my GAS meter flicker. It took Zynaptiq's Adaptiverb to do that, which offered something genuinely new.

[J Rod]

This is expecupation and is not confirmed but Music Store announce O8N2 like a bundle with 2 differents "Advanced" products , i hope is not the case and Ozone and Neutron will be a unique product.

Music Store O8N2

[Lawrence]

At a slightly lower price I would have gone for the Pro-R. I tried the demo and really liked the transparency of it, but I bought PhoenixVerb for substantially less.

[Arcana]

I might have it wrong, but to me companies like Soundtoys and Fab Filter are both wonderful I'm sure, but I only ever seem to see the same kinds of variations on the usual themes. I'm unlikely to get excited about a new compressor or reverb from anyone. My enthusiasm for iZotope, like Zynptiq, is in their innovation.

Yeah, I think you have it wrong

Certainly, if you have tons of EQ, limiters, reverb etc. you might not need them, but I think Fabfilter's Pro-Q2 (EQ) is generally considered the best on the market. And their limiter is right up there as well. They are not quite as innovative as Izotope but their GUI as second to none IMO. Just check out Dan Worral's videos on YouTube for some instant GAS.

Huh.... that sounds to me as if I don't have it wrong after all! Wonderful I'm sure, but it's another EQ, another limiter etc. I'm lucky enough to have great EQs and limiters already. Tons of them, actually. I just can't get enthused about another that I know will make an almost imperceptible difference to either my workflow or my output. In the interests of paying dues, I did look at Dan Worral's youtube video for Fab Filter's Pro R. It looks and sounds wonderful, really well designed, but it didn't make my GAS meter flicker. It took Zynaptiq's Adaptiverb to do that, which offered something genuinely new.

I guess at the end of the day, they are just standard effects, but I do think Fabfilter pushes the limits of what that entails.
You should check out Dan Worral's video for Pro-Q2. Pro-C, I think is the first product in years that they've released that people are generally a bit disappointed with.

They also offer a nice incentive, so if you have a few of their plugins you get 35-40% discount on all other products. Keeps me coming back for more

[Guy Rowland]

This is expecupation and is not confirmed but Music Store announce O8N2 like a bundle with 2 differents "Advanced" products , i hope is not the case and Ozone and Neutron will be a unique product.

Music Store O8N2

Oh good spot, thanks.

[Guy Rowland]

Both products are now released - https://www.izotope.com/en/products/mix/neutron.html

This video perhaps shows much of the new features and workflow in both:



What is curious to me about this video - and I'd be keen to hear what others think - is that with the first track in particular, it sounds worse to my ears after the tonal balance corrections. Just to convince myself I wasn't going mad, I did an A/B with that poppier than pop track I really like at the moment by Rae Morris, which I think is a fabulous mix - loads of space with a rich bass and zing at the top end...



...all of which are absent from that Nuetroned track which sounds, well, flat and boring. And that should be an apples and apples comparison, both contemporary pop. Now on the more positive side, you can load your own reference targets, so I could load in Rae Morris and any other popping greatness I have lying around and it would - in theory - guide me to similar targets. This is appealing.

As to the visual mixer, I'm not really sure how useful this will be - it's definitely not a SPAT product, rather just a way of looking at what's already there plus a few bells and whistles such as width control. I wonder is it genuinely intelligent though - to be meaningful it has to not show you the technical gain and volume of a track, but how loud it is, which of course depends to a huge extent on the source and how it was recorded or generated. So potentially interesting, but possibly useless:



I'm not seeing any upgrade coupons to Neutron 2 in my account, only Music Production Bundle and Ozone 8 upgrades. The former is $299, which I'm not sure is worth it for what extra I'd get. I might well trial Neutron 2 first though.

[Arcana]

There's an upgrade path for $99 for the standard showing for me.

I'm not convinced about the visual mixer either. If it had included reverb I might have been, but all I can see it's useful for now is a quick way to A/B different settings of level/pan on the fly.

I'm going to test Tonal balance control though as that seems like the most useful addition.

I'm a bit miffed that the dynamic Eq doesn't appear to have an attack and release feature added. I don't know why they decided not to add that again.

[J Rod]

Music production Bundle 2 (i have this) is now Music Production Suite, I have coupons to MPS at 299$. I feel all that are minor updates to O7N7, dont think that this update cost 299$. I'm not convinced.

[Guy Rowland]

Just received this from iZotope - good on them.

At iZotope, we make it a point to stay connected to our community of passionate customers. Whether it's product research, surveys, or reading the comments on social media, your opinion matters to us. Last week, we announced Ozone 8 and Neutron 2, and some Music Production Bundle 2 customers expressed concern over pricing.

Effective today through October 31, you can now upgrade to the O8N2 Bundle for the introductory price of $199. The O8N2 Bundle includes Ozone 8 Advanced, Neutron 2 Advanced, and the new Tonal Balance Control plug-in. You still have the option of getting the Music Production Suite with RX 6 Standard for $299.

We are extremely proud of the new versions of Ozone and Neutron. A lot of hard work, research, and effort went into creating these two products. We hope this new price change will allow more customers to get access to our new products and enjoy the integrated workflow of Ozone 8 and Neutron 2.

Might give me a kick to trial the thing properly.

[Guy Rowland]

I've read a few positive comments from those with the plugins, especially with regard to the tonal balance element. This is a fairly interesting piece from the designer of the tech with a lot more detail on how it was created and how it works.

https://www.izotope.com/en/community/bl ... ug-in.html